Getting inexperienced leaders up to speed faster

[desertrat77]

Eagle, a great post all around, but I thought I'd highlight your points about DIY gear and shopping for bargains...spot on!

 

The BSA, and the outdoor culture as a whole, promotes way too much "gucci gear."   For example, most folks don't have canteens anymore, they have "hydration systems."   For decades, scouts got along just fine with a basic steel or plastic canteen (or two).   Today, we have more cost and complexity to do what?  To get a drink of water. 

 

Plenty of trusty, solid gear from yesteryear out there.   Buy it at the garage sales for song, and combine it with the blanket sleeping bags and the like that Eagle mentioned.   Then mom/dad have more money in their pocket, and if Johnny loses his 99 cent surplus GI canteen (which you know darn well he will, at least once), well, it's not the end of the world.

 

 

In the past, I've done an "Intro to camping" class for Tigers and Wolves in preparation our council's fall family camp out. While I do bring my "toys" to show off (I am a kid at heart   ), I focus more on the DIY gear that you can get from items around the hours ( blanket sleeping bags, tin can stoves, cooking gear from home) or very cheaply from a store ( plastic ground sheets and tarps for shelters).  I stress not making major purchases until they KNOW they enjoy camping.

 

Then I talk about my "toys." I talk about what to look for in gear. I talk about how if you take care of the gear, it will last a long time. Like the used backpack I got 25+ years ago that oldest is borrowing, the 15 year old tent someone was throwing away because it had a small rip and couldn't sew to fix it. I talk about Government Surplus, and garage sales (now oldest can talk about how he found a fully stocked chuck box with an estimated $100-$200 worth of BACKPACKING cooking gear at a garage sale for $40 for his patrol! ).

Edited September 16, 2015 by desertrat77

[Eagle94-A1]

I admit I have some " gucci gear."  I ALWAYS pack my newsest toy: a 30 once French press coffee maker. I don't want to wake up Grumpy when she comes, and I am a coffee addict.

 

But you are spot on about the expensive hydration systems, water bottles and other gear that WILL get lost. 

 

True Story my son was in a panic because he lost the waterbottle I got for him right before his very first summer camp. He spent over an hour searching for it and was crying over it (I also think part of it was homesickness too).  He said it was special because I bought it for him for camping. I told him it was OK, it's not a big deal, and I would take care of it. So I took him to the trading post, and bought him another Gatorade so he could use the bottle. Yes he was freaking out over a Gatorade bottle I bought before we left for camp.

[desertrat77]

I admit I have some " gucci gear."  I ALWAYS pack my newsest toy: a 30 once French press coffee maker. I don't want to wake up Grumpy when she comes, and I am a coffee addict.

 

But you are spot on about the expensive hydration systems, water bottles and other gear that WILL get lost. 

 

True Story my son was in a panic because he lost the waterbottle I got for him right before his very first summer camp. He spent over an hour searching for it and was crying over it (I also think part of it was homesickness too).  He said it was special because I bought it for him for camping. I told him it was OK, it's not a big deal, and I would take care of it. So I took him to the trading post, and bought him another Gatorade so he could use the bottle. Yes he was freaking out over a Gatorade bottle I bought before we left for camp.

Eagle, I'm tracking with you, especially about the coffee!   I've got a few pieces of fancy gear myself.

 

I completely understand about your son's reaction to the lost bottle.   Very true, probably a bit of homesickness, but it's interesting how near/dear these things are to kids and even adults.   I've got a footlocker of stuff from my scouting days, and some of it is of no value aside from sentiment/nostalgia.   On the other hand, a few years ago I misplaced my old Bobcat pin and on certain days, it have a twinge of pain thinking about it.

[5yearscouter]

Getting them into the RIGHT job is way more important than getting them up to speed into a job you need done.

Unfortunately it may mean you end up with a lot of people that would make a great committee person, or a unit scouter reserve (on reserve to be helpful in some situations maybe but not active committee) and you end up with only one or two who have skillz, or the ability and interest to get themselves up to speed fast enough.  You want them to want to get themselves trained if they are sm or asm, you don't want to have to hold their hand.

 

I think training the parents on the scout skills up thru Webelos is important, so the parents learn the skills along with their son.

So if you need them to be the second adult on an outing, or to drive and it's too far to just send them back home, they are ok and have fun on the campout and know how to stay out of the way.

 

But training adults on the difference between boy scouts and cub scouts is imperative. We used to have some interesting things taught outside to the youth that the adults wanted to learn, like dutch oven cooking, or how to backpack, or what to buy.  We let the scouts do their teaching outside, and the adults teach each other similar stuff inside.  So the adults can have fun, get each other up to speed, but not interfere with the youth program. 

 

Pulling in an adult to teach something like what to buy and how to pack for backpacking, sure that has it's uses, even in a totally boy run troop--there is always something new out there that even the older boys just don't know about yet.  But Ideally the adult would teach the instructors or older scouts and let those boys teach it to the other boys. 

 

If the adult teaches it to all the scouts, then the adult will tend to be called in to do that task over and over again.  The boys start to take it for granted that the adult will tell them what to bring or what to buy or will double check how they packed their backpacking backpack or bring along the thing they forgot to pack so they begin to back out of the responsibility.

 

Teach it to the youth one time, then they are responsible for teaching it, remembering and ensuring the quality of information is passed on to the next set of scout instructors.  Sure watch a bit in the back of the room occasionally and if they say something totally incorrect you might have to say something if they are teaching something dangerous, or just do a quick re-teaching of stuff later on to help them improve their delivery.  Scouts learn a lot from teaching --sometimes you really don't know what you know until you have to teach it to someone else.

[Eagledad]

If the adult teaches it to all the scouts, then the adult will tend to be called in to do that task over and over again.  The boys start to take it for granted that the adult will tell them what to bring or what to buy or will double check how they packed their backpacking backpack or bring along the thing they forgot to pack so they begin to back out of the responsibility.

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. 

 

Barry

[5yearscouter]

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. 

 

Barry

yeah understood and agree sort of.

We have a troop guide and an instructor that should be watching over those new scout patrol, but sometimes they still get lost or left behind and end up with either the blind teaching the blind or the adults step in thinking it's the only way the new guys will learn anything.

Right now we are dealing with a scoutmaster who is stepping over his own son who is spl to teach scouts directly when it just isn't necessary, well except when his son the spl would prefer to ride his skateboard than to even pretend to be spl.

These next 6 months of this SPL and SM father son team may finish running my son and I out of the troop. 

[Eagledad]

yeah understood and agree sort of.

We have a troop guide and an instructor that should be watching over those new scout patrol, but sometimes they still get lost or left behind and end up with either the blind teaching the blind or the adults step in thinking it's the only way the new guys will learn anything.

My experience is that Troop guides and instructors just aren't near enough. Young scouts are at an age where they learn best by watching, not listening. While it is not always possible, the best environment for growth is being immersed with experienced peers. As I said, that situation is not always possible, but it helps to understand the reasoning.

 

Im sorry to hear about your situation. 

 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. 

 

Barry

 

I've been preaching the evils of NSPs ever since my troop was one of the "guinea pig" troops that used it in the 1986-1987 time frame, and it was a complete and total mess. We went back to integrating new Scouts into one of the 3 mixed aged patrols

[blw2]

I've been preaching the evils of NSPs ever since my troop was one of the "guinea pig" troops that used it in the 1986-1987 time frame, and it was a complete and total mess. We went back to integrating new Scouts into one of the 3 mixed aged patrols

Unfortunately, My CO's troop.... the one my son will likely go to.... recently instituted a NSP I think

 

On one hand, i can see a benefit though....

having listened to an interview of Green Bar Bill a while back, and he was talking about patrols and the idea is that it should be a natural group of boys that would want to run and hang together anyway....  a group of buds, the Kind Baden Powell found using his book camping and doing Scouting Adventures on their own at the start of the scouting movement...

Extending that logic, I can't imagine there are too many 16-17 year olds that would choose to hang with a bunch of 10 year WEB crossovers... or visa versa.... So i'd imagine that natural selection would place the younger boys together and the older boys together if left purely to the boys to team up

 

But the lack of older boys to mentor, teach, and guide is a concern I naturally had when i first heard they made that move....

We'll see.

[Stosh]

If left to their own choices, patrols naturally seem to gravitate towards similar aged groupings.  Mixed patrols tend to be the result of adult directives.  While aged based doesn't have to be exactly locked in stone, where only 11 year olds are in one patrol, 12 in another, but one never sees 16 and 17 year olds wanting to hang out with 11 and 12 year olds.  My self selected aged based patrols tended to not vary beyond a one maybe two year difference.  Those "older" boys did well working with their younger patrol members, they didn't need to be mentored by 17 year olds, the new boys can be mentored very well by a 13 year old.

[Sentinel947]

I completely agree with Stosh.

[desertrat77]

The key is indeed natural gravitation to their own patrols, and it will work as Stosh mentioned.  

 

On the other hand, when there is an official "new guy" patrol, it often turns into a "leper colony" that no one is happy with.   The young scouts know they are in a holding pen.   The guides/Leadership Corps/etc. that are assigned to train/mentor sometimes do so half heartedly, preferring to hang out with their same-aged pals elsewhere in the troop.   So the new scouts tend to muddle through on their own.

 

As a scout, my first patrol was mixed ages, and it worked well.   I really looked up to the older kids.   We moved, and my next patrol was a new guy patrol, and it stunk.   Just a dumping ground for new scouts.  

[Stosh]

First of all the "NSP" is kind of a orientation grouping where the new guys get to hang together as they absorb "what the H...L is going on here.  This ain't WEBELOS anymore!"  Like any other group, they can be picked up by an existing patrol if that patrol chooses them, i.e. an older brother in an established patrol, etc.  The NSP has a TG to help them get oriented and this person is their first mentor and is usually an "older" scout looking for a POR.   I have had one experience where the Webelos Den Chief switched over to TG when the boys crossed over.  No DL, and it was quite interesting to see it work itself out.  Instructors also are older boys looking for PORs and they will work with the new boys.  Both those positions are not adult directed, they are helping because they need a POR and are willing to take on the responsibility.  Of course the NSP can also incorporate older boys into it!  If there is a list of boys needing POR, they might want to consider selecting one of them to be their PL, too.  It's up to the boys what they want to do.

 

In some respects this process is quite fluid.  the older boy PL might be there for only the 6 month tenure and then go off to another patrol, or he might stay on if he enjoyed it.  

 

Everyone decides for themselves what they want, but I have found they tend to clump together for reasons known only to themselves and it seems to be a bit age based with POR exceptions here and there as the boys work out what's best for them.

 

I also allow the boys to make changes in the patrol structures at any time they request it.  If a PL isn't working out they can dump him in a heartbeat and have a new one up and running in an hour.  If one needs a 6 month POR, they had better be ready to do the job for the full 6 months or they can be left standing at the altar overnight.  Of course if a NSP youth takes on PL of the NSP, he could very well serve as PL of that group until he ages out at 18, too.  I don't care one way or the other.  The boys are the ones that care, therefore they should be the ones deciding.

[blw2]

If left to their own choices, patrols naturally seem to gravitate towards similar aged groupings.  Mixed patrols tend to be the result of adult directives.  While aged based doesn't have to be exactly locked in stone, where only 11 year olds are in one patrol, 12 in another, but one never sees 16 and 17 year olds wanting to hang out with 11 and 12 year olds.  My self selected aged based patrols tended to not vary beyond a one maybe two year difference.  Those "older" boys did well working with their younger patrol members, they didn't need to be mentored by 17 year olds, the new boys can be mentored very well by a 13 year old.

 

@@Stosh, I know your troop is very small now, so this doesn't really apply now..... but just to clarify..... if your troop was bigger, are you saying that you would select patrols, but not vary them by more than a year or two in age?

 

Your next post seems to indicate that you leave the boys totally to their own devices to figure out patrol structure....

so i'm confused.... 

 

As I mentioned before, the troop my son will likely go to, has the NSP setup I think..... so at least there's some comfort in knowing that I won't be dealing with a disappointed son who has to deal with his best bud and him getting split off into different patrols right away after they cross over....  I'm not so sure the NSP is the best.... but at least there's that!

 

 

I'm not sure where I'll land.... or if I even will....  Writing back around to the subject of this post, getting adults up to speed....

I'm at least as energetic about scouting, if not more so than most (based on my willingness to spend time here, attendance record at round Tables, the cumulative time I have invested in the pack, etc...) ..... & I'm probably at least as up to speed with the patrol and boy lead concepts as most of the current committee and leaders are.....  many probably aren't nearly so with a few more...... but they have a well staffed corps on the committee and a well staffed ASM corp too.....

So while i'm energetic about scouting, and want to help in some way.... and my son wants me to stay involved too.... I'm not sure if I'll land in a spot beyond merit badge counselor or some such thing

because they already seem to have enough adult involvement.....

[Stosh]

I have been ASM in an adult led troop that mandated who is in what patrol according to what they think is the best combination.  It didn't really matter, the function as a troop method unit and the patrols were in name only and ad hoc patrols were the normal course of events.

 

When I took over as a SM of a 5 boy troop that was on the verge of collapse, the numbers grew to a bit over 30 boys and yes we had multiple patrols and they were all created by the boys themselves.  The year or two difference in ages was not prescribed by the adults, they could pick anyone they wanted in the troop for their patrol.  The only "expectation" was the patrol needed membership of 6-8 boys.  What they came up with was the results indicated the boys picked their groupings and they came out the 1 maybe 2 year difference in ages.  Like I said, I really don't think my 16 year olds really want to hang with the 11 year olds. It was merely an observation, not an adult instituted directive.

 

And in order to answer your question more precisely,   If your troop was bigger, are you saying that you would select patrols, but not vary them by more than a year or two in age?  I have never selected patrols.  That is the exclusive domain of the boys themselves.  They just come and tell me the names in the patrol and that's it.  If they change around, I expect the courtesy of know who's with what patrol, when.  

 

As I mentioned before, the troop my son will likely go to, has the NSP setup I think..... so at least there's some comfort in knowing that I won't be dealing with a disappointed son who has to deal with his best bud and him getting split off into different patrols right away after they cross over....  I'm not so sure the NSP is the best.... but at least there's that!

 

I wonder how many cross-over boys we lose because they have been with their friends since Tiger Cubs and now they come into Boy Scouts and they can't be with them anymore.  That really sucks in my estimation.  If it was my kid and he wanted to quit because he couldn't be with his friends, I wouldn't stop him, but I would help him find a troop for him AND HIS FRIENDS that allow them to be together.

 

Let's just leave it at, if one wishes to know what's the best set up for patrols... either mixed or same/similar aged, just ask the BOYS and ignore the adults.  It's the boy's program, let them decide.  Who's in what patrol matters more to the boys than the adults.  The more the adults interfere in this process the more problems they create for themselves, especially in the area of discipline.