What if the Boy Scouts went coed?

[Eagle94-A1]

If I was king of BSA some things I'd do are the following;

 

1) Reduce and streamline the national level.

 

2) Recruit folks with Scouting background, preferably youth background. I dealt with this when I worked for national supply. Folks with 0 Scouting experience coming up with stupid stuff (anyone remember the AOL buckle for leather belts?) that anyone with Scouting expereince would tell you is a bad idea.

 

3) Get a "Chief Scout" like the UK. Mike Rowe immediately comes to mind.

 

4) Bet back to basics. Last time national went away from the basics, the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s, It took William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt coming out of retirement and writing a new handbook emphasizing the traditional outdoor program, as well as creating Brownsea 22 to reintroduce basic outdoor Scouting skills to older Scouts fix the exodus. It worked.

 

5) PROMOTE THE HECK OUT OF THE PROGRAM. Instead relying on individual councils to pay for advertising, national pays. and puts it on some national level events.

 

 

6) Revamp training especially outdoor training and WB21C. I don't like wasting folks time. You know what I thought about my BALOO class after years of teaching IOLS, staffing council level CS events, and being a staff advisor for a council CS event. I think WB should again be 2, maybe even three, programs focusing on CS leaders, Boy Scout leaders, and possibly Venturing Leaders.BS and Venturing WB should again go back to basics, buck kicked up a notch. Sea Badge appears to be spot on (I was hoping to take it next year but medical bills now prevent that ) And the specialty Powderhorn courses we need more of.

 

Again getting back to our core program, an outdoor youth movement, instead of trying to be all things to everyone.

[qwazse]

@@Eagle94-A1, I noticed when you refer to basics, you omit "unisex". Isn't that one of the basics?

[blw2]

a lot of comments about doing the coed thing to increase numbers.....

as for me anyway, when i say I'm for it it has absolutely nothing to do with raising enrolment numbers.

[Eagle94-A1]

@@Eagle94-A1, I noticed when you refer to basics, you omit "unisex". Isn't that one of the basics?

 

Sea Scouts and Venturing are co-ed, and I do not see that changing.  Also in regards to female Boy Scout leaders, again that genie is already out and I do not think it can be placed back in the bottle. Besides, I know of a few female leaders who have better knowledge, skills, and abilities in the outdoors than their male counterparts.

 

My biggest concern is actually adults who "know it all" but actually don't. Heck I've been in the movement over 30 years in various capacities, and i still don't know it all.

[qwazse]

a lot of comments about doing the coed thing to increase numbers.....

as for me anyway, when i say I'm for it it has absolutely nothing to do with raising enrolment numbers.

Agreed. That said, we do want to look at the precedents set in other countries to see if opening to girls discourages boys from membership. We need to get a handle on how many boys would be deterred by the presence of girls. In the UK, at least, it seems that if any are deterred, thier numbers are being offset by many more who find the whole proposition to be attractive.

 

Another way of looking at it: do boys join BSA to get away from any girls? All girls? Or certain kinds of girls?

 

Or, does the "boy" in BSA represent a promise of activities attractive to boys who would be scouts? If so, then it stands to reason that a boy or girl comes to the BSA looking for adventure worthy of an aspiring scout. If this is indeed the case, they have a lot more that unites them than what would divide them by virtue of opposite sex and developmental stage.

 

I'm not denying there's a little of both playing around in a boy's head. But is it enough - one way or the other - to lead a lad to seek adventure elsewhere?

[cyclops]

Saw a coed troop today. I'm not sure if they're doing this for real or just allowing females to join in but the girls were wearing the same class B uniforms and selling the popcorn and I have to tell you - the girls are better at sales than the boys. It looked like a troop and a pack had combined forces to sell popcorn at a farmer's market. They were doing pretty well too.

I asked the leader if the girls went on outings with the boys and he said (quietly) yes they do. Interesting. Sounds like another case of 'avowed' as opposed to not 'avowed' - out of sight, out of mind, or maybe 'elephant in the room'. LOL. I thought the unit looked just great, they were having a great time and working as a team. All good.

[Stosh]

And like my mamma said, "It's all fun until someone gets hurt."  Boy Scout YPT is not the same as Venturing YPT, Lack of liability insurance for everyone is really an issue as well.  There are not many people interested in wiring a house with the electricity turned on, but I'm sure there are those out there that do.

[cyclops]

I checked with our COR and IH regarding the coed topic. They're all for it. They consider the whole liability thing to be a dishonest smokescreen for just not wanting girls involved (their interpretation, not mine). This CO already has ample insurance and the  measley secondary coverage by BSA is probably never going to be on the radar screen anyway. The CO already has outings involving everyone (yes, even including those dreaded girls) and has a nice fat insurance policy to cover all that liability. The troop and pack are merely more of the same thing as far as they're concerned. That said, I'm going to discuss the possibility of having joint campouts and other outings so the girls can do the same things as the boys. If this idea gets some traction I'll let you know how it works out.

[gumbymaster]

Back in the day ... and for all I know they may still do ...

 

We ran a program for 11+ aged youth.  It was a week long event for participants.  Staff usually met one weekend a month for the 6-9 months before the event.

 

We had an explorer post to cover everyone 14 and up.

Boys less than 14 were usually associated with a Troop participating in the event.

Girls under 14 (and non Scouts) were registered into a Campfire unit.

 

Then they ran the event.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating this as a means of sneaking girls into to the Boy Scout program ... mearly as a way that some of the membership and logistic problems were addressed.

[Hedgehog]

So here is my $.02.  Up until around 7th grade, boys want nothing to do with girls.  My 13 year old son and his best friend now have two girls they hang out with (the ones who complain that the Girl Scouts don't do anything fun).  On the way home from our 50 mile backpacking trek, the boys were texting the girls debating whether the girls could have made the trip.  Although I have to agree with the boys (we all struggled at times on the trek and the girls have never been backpacking before), the talk soon turned to doing a backpacking trip with the four of them (and one of the girls dads).  When you add those girls interest to the adult leaders in the Troop who have daughters, I do see an opportunity for starting a venture crew (although it may meet with some resistance for shifting my attention and the adventure component away from the troop).

 

I suspect those are the type of girls that would join Boy Scouts -- not the popular ones but the ones that like the outdoors.  However, I would keep Boy Scouts just boys.  Our troop is over 50 boys and thriving.  I love the fact that the boys can be boys.  Girls bring a different dynamic.  Our group of goofballs can be themselves without worrying about what girls think or do.  

 

From watching my son work with girls on homework assignments, they are more organized and detail oriented and, as a result, they take over the leadership of the project.  The boys response is, "if they want to, I'll let them ... it is easier."  I don't think that changes until around 10th or 11th grade.  I think the presence of girls would reduce the opportunities for boys to find their ability to lead. I loved this past weekend seeing the SPL truly lead without me saying a word, seeing the PLs taking charge and seeing my son lead as an APL.  

[qwazse]

So here is my $.02.  Up until around 7th grade, boys want nothing to do with girls.  My 13 year old son and his best friend now have two girls they hang out with (the ones who complain that the Girl Scouts don't do anything fun).  On the way home from our 50 mile backpacking trek, the boys were texting the girls debating whether the girls could have made the trip.  Although I have to agree with the boys (we all struggled at times on the trek and the girls have never been backpacking before), the talk soon turned to doing a backpacking trip with the four of them (and one of the girls dads).  When you add those girls interest to the adult leaders in the Troop who have daughters, I do see an opportunity for starting a venture crew (although it may meet with some resistance for shifting my attention and the adventure component away from the troop).

 

I suspect those are the type of girls that would join Boy Scouts -- not the popular ones but the ones that like the outdoors.  However, I would keep Boy Scouts just boys.  Our troop is over 50 boys and thriving.  I love the fact that the boys can be boys.  Girls bring a different dynamic.  Our group of goofballs can be themselves without worrying about what girls think or do.  

 

From watching my son work with girls on homework assignments, they are more organized and detail oriented and, as a result, they take over the leadership of the project.  The boys response is, "if they want to, I'll let them ... it is easier."  I don't think that changes until around 10th or 11th grade.  I think the presence of girls would reduce the opportunities for boys to find their ability to lead. I loved this past weekend seeing the SPL truly lead without me saying a word, seeing the PLs taking charge and seeing my son lead as an APL.  

Just from my experience ...

• There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good.
• The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this.
• "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance.
• As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning.

Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it.

Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

[Cambridgeskip]

 

From watching my son work with girls on homework assignments, they are more organized and detail oriented and, as a result, they take over the leadership of the project.  The boys response is, "if they want to, I'll let them ... it is easier."  I don't think that changes until around 10th or 11th grade.  I think the presence of girls would reduce the opportunities for boys to find their ability to lead. I loved this past weekend seeing the SPL truly lead without me saying a word, seeing the PLs taking charge and seeing my son lead as an APL.  

From working with coed scouts here in the UK I can see there is an element of truth to what you say but it doesn't tell the whole story. Yes girls are more likely to get it right first time. However when things go wrong my experience is that is when the boys are that much better.

 

 

I suspect those are the type of girls that would join Boy Scouts -- not the popular ones but the ones that like the outdoors.  However, I would keep Boy Scouts just boys.  Our troop is over 50 boys and thriving.  I love the fact that the boys can be boys.  Girls bring a different dynamic.  Our group of goofballs can be themselves without worrying about what girls think or do.  

 

 

Its funny, but when the girls put on the uniform it's like the boys don't see them as girls any more, they are just another scout. Yes there's the occasional bit of flirting and very occasionally "boy meets girl" but nothing to really write home about.

[blw2]

......Its funny, but when the girls put on the uniform it's like the boys don't see them as girls any more, they are just another scout. Yes there's the occasional bit of flirting and very occasionally "boy meets girl" but nothing to really write home about.

 

This, I'm thinking for many (myself included), is maybe the biggest issue that nobody wants to wrap their heads around or want to mention.....or wants to deal with.

[Hedgehog]

Just from my experience ...

• There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good.
• The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this.
• "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance.
• As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning.

Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it.

Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

 

I agree on the difference in youth leadership styles.  Planning is lacking in boys, but I've seen them perform under pressure and demonstrate the skills they've learned.   I'll have to trust you on the rest of it.  

 

I told the boys that if they planned it, I'm make the call.  They are thinking AT from Delaware Water Gap to Backpacker's site / Sunfish Pond -- about 5 miles in and can reverse and take a different trail out.

 

From working with coed scouts here in the UK I can see there is an element of truth to what you say but it doesn't tell the whole story. Yes girls are more likely to get it right first time. However when things go wrong my experience is that is when the boys are that much better.

 

Its funny, but when the girls put on the uniform it's like the boys don't see them as girls any more, they are just another scout. Yes there's the occasional bit of flirting and very occasionally "boy meets girl" but nothing to really write home about.

 

 I like your take on the differences in how boys and girl's leadership develops.  

 

My son sees the girls he is friends as just another friend -- they all share some common interests and then there is the catagory of what he calls "girl things" -- like hair, make-up, etc.

 

This, I'm thinking for many (myself included), is maybe the biggest issue that nobody wants to wrap their heads around or want to mention.....or wants to deal with.

 

Actually, that isn't a concern I would have.  I suspect that there are better opportunities for that sort of stuff than out in the wilderness with a light sleeping adult in a hammock.  Plus, my experience is that everyone is so exhausted on outings that sleeping is a higher priority than anything else -- most of our guys are asleep by 10:00 on campouts and shortly after 9:00 on backpacking treks.

 

As for the public displays of affection, I've seen the razzing the older boys give each other on that so I think that would also be a non-issue.

[Cambridgeskip]

This, I'm thinking for many (myself included), is maybe the biggest issue that nobody wants to wrap their heads around or want to mention.....or wants to deal with.

 

I used to be a cub leader where it's not something you have to worry about! When I switched to scouts (10-14 year olds here) I was slightly apprehensive about it but found that it just isn't a problem.

 

For the handful of couples that we've ended up with it's been simple to deal with. We have troop rules, which are separate tents for boys and girls. We trust the kids to keep to it and they respect that trust. It honestly is that simple. On the slightly wider PDA* front the kids enforce discipline. On the couple of occasions that couples have become distracted from the program by each other the other kids have pulled them up on it and it has stopped.

 

Talking to explorer leaders (14-18) they obviously see more of it. But again they deal with it on a trust basis and it works. Currently there is a male 16 year old explorer and 15 year old female explorer helping with our cub pack. They are a couple but at cubs and at their explorer unit you would never know. 

 

Over all it's one of those issues that I think gets worried about disproportionately. Similarly girls hygiene needs. We take a couple of packs of sanitary towels to camp with us. We tell the girls where they are kept and on the very rare occasions they are caught short (they are normally very good at looking after themselves) they simply go and help themselves. Again a lot of leaders worry about this prior to taking girls on camp and are amazed at how easy it is to deal with.

 

I think the most difficult thing about coed scouting is ensuring that the typical leadership styles of boys and girls are both given a chance to shine.

 

*Public Displays of Affection, don't know if that's a common acronym in the USA!