What if the Boy Scouts went coed?

[NJCubScouter]

Perhaps this will surprise some people, but I have serious concerns about this proposal, which have been stated previously by KenD and Sentinel (i.e. "changing the dynamic") and I also share some (but not necessarily all) of Eagledad's concerns as well.

 

I believe that the Girl Scouts (or for those who prefer, American Heritage Girls or other groups) are reasonably corresponding (if not fully "equivalent" groups) for girls of Cub and Boy Scout age. If the problem with Girl Scouts is a lack of outdoor activity, then the parents and girls within that group should agitate for change. My daughters were both Girl Scouts although they quit before having opportunities for the higher awards or any leadership opportunities. I thought it was a pretty good program. It is at least good enough for me to not regard the Boy Scouts' focus on boys as being "exclusionary."

 

As for "changing the dynamic", I have seen what happens in our troop when there are girls around, particularly girls of say 8th grade or older, who might be hanging out with their parents at a troop meeting while waiting to pick up their son, or at a troop family picnic, or whatever. The boys are suddenly unable to do what they are supposed to be doing. Any emerging emotional maturity they may have (which is often in short supply to begin with) goes right out the window. I understand it, I was probably the same way at that age. How these boys function in school where 50% of their fellow students are girls, I don't know. Maybe they don't. The same goes with Venturing, with which I have never been involved. God bless those of you who are leaders in that program. I don't know how you do it. Maybe the fact that the kids are somewhat older helps a little. If I think about what I have seen in our troop, it is probably true that the boys who go really goofy at the sight of a high school girl are more the 12- and 13-year-olds than the high-school-age boys.

 

So that's what I think. Could it be made to work reasonably well? Probably. But I don't see a need for it and I have enough concerns that I hope the BSA can let things settle down a little bit and work on moving forward. (And to Stosh's point about STEM Scouts: To say the BSA already has girls at Cub and Boy Scout ages is a major exaggeration in my opinion. As far as I know STEM Scouts is still a pilot program in about a dozen councils. I have not seen any statistics but I would have to guess that the number of STEM Scouts is a tiny fraction of the number of Cub and Boy Scouts, and even if/when expanded nationally, I see no indication that that will change. For all practical purposes the BSA is still boys-only at ages 6-3.)

[qwazse]

@@NJCubScouter, thanks for the faint praise of us Advisors ... How do we do it? A lot of crazy mixed with a little stupid and an inability to say no to teen girls who want to hike and camp.

 

Here's the actual secret: that goofball behavior ends when there's real work to be done. The boys still manage to be boys and the girls girls after about four miles on the trials rough rocks and bogs or when someone needs toilet paper for the latrine or the shovel to dig one.

 

Co-Ed scouting doesn't look anything like those troop picnics.

 

When it does, it may be the scoutmaster insists on segregating patrols by sex. When it looks like the youth want to get over themselves and work together, reassign patrols accordingly.

 

Thus I have no problems with extending membership. But, I also am not all that bothered if it never happens.

[David CO]

How do boys handle coed middle school?  Under constant adult supervision.

 

The big problem isn't putting middle school girls in with middle school boys.  It is with putting middle school girls in with high school boys that's the problem.

[Stosh]

How do boys handle coed middle school?  Under constant adult supervision.

 

The big problem isn't putting middle school girls in with middle school boys.  It is with putting middle school girls in with high school boys that's the problem.

 

It's no different than putting freshmen girls in with college guys and that BSA already does.  All they are going to do is make the problems worse in that category.

[Peregrinator]

How do boys handle coed middle school?  Under constant adult supervision.

And some (many? most?) boys still handle it poorly and would be better served in a boys-only environment. And is "constant adult supervision" a feature of scouting?

[David CO]

No, constant adult supervision is not a traditional feature of scouting.  That's my point.  Comparing school to scouting is apples to oranges.

 

In a typical middle school, the boys and girls will largely self-segregate.  Boys in a lunchroom will usually sit together.  You rarely see mixed groups at a cafeteria table.

 

You see the same thing at basketball games.  The boys and girls don't usually sit together in the bleachers.  You see clumps of boys and clumps of girls.  Very little mixing.

 

Schools went coed to insure that girls will get the same resources and quality of education that the boys receive.  It was about equal educational opportunities, not about social interaction.

[Eagledad]

Schools went coed to insure that girls will get the same resources and quality of education that the boys receive.  It was about equal educational opportunities, not about social interaction.

And what has been learned is that coed education is not equal between the genders because they learn differently. One of them always gets the short end of the stick.

 

How the genders behave socially in coed groups depends largely from instinct. Human nature drives each gender to socialize in groups away from the other gender because they are each developing their own instinctive behavior. Girls tend to practice nurturing in their play while boys tend to practice a more aggressive style for the future of providing food and protection (survival). Nature eventually takes care of coed socialization at the appropriate time through puberty.

 

Take a lesson from what we see from the schools, don't mess with Mother Nature.

 

Barry

[David CO]

Changing to coed classes were a response to some pretty glaring inequalities that existed at that time.  The old public middle school in my home town didn't have a girls locker room.  Girls didn't take Gym class.  They also had very limited opportunities to participate in sports.

 

I'm glad that my girls are getting a better education.

 

That said, I totally agree that boys and girls learn differently.  They need a different approach.  In some subjects and activities, I think they could benefit from separate classes, clubs, and teams. 

 

Unfortunately, some people have replaced our very laudable goal of equal opportunity with the less praiseworthy ambition of social engineering.

 

I see some similarities in the question of coed scouting.  Some people focus on improving girls access to a quality outdoor program, while others have a more social agenda.

 

I can't see how we can open up our outdoor program to girls without inviting in all the social engineers.

Edited September 7, 2015 by David CO

[Peregrinator]

No, constant adult supervision is not a traditional feature of scouting.  That's my point.  Comparing school to scouting is apples to oranges.

Thanks, I realize now that I misinterpreted your comment.

 

I know of a traditional scouting association in Canada in which the Beaver (7-8), Cub (9-11), and Rover (17+) programs are co-ed, while the Scout/Guide (12-16) program is segregated. I'm not quite sure I agree with that approach (I think it would be better if the programs were segregated at all levels, for different reasons), but it might be the sort of compromise that would be acceptable to many families. Of course the hardcore activists won't settle for anything less than total integration/inclusion.

[David CO]

Our local Girl Scout program is nothing like the Boy Scouts.  Similarly, the YWCA is nothing like the YMCA.

 

The YWCA, just a couple blocks away, recently tore out the swimming pool.  They feel that their resources would be better spent on their "core mission" to "empower women and end racial discrimination."  

 

Many girls have switched over to the YMCA.  

 

I have some very strong feelings about the YMCA.  I went to a YMCA college.  I was very much a part of the YMCA philosophy and culture.

 

Many things have changed since it went coed and family friendly.  The YMCA has dropped both the men and the Christian from the organizations name and identity.  It is now just the Y.

 

I'm glad that the girls will still have a place to go swimming.  I'm sad that the YMCA, the club's distinct identity and philosophy, is gone forever.

 

I don't want to see the same thing happen with the Boy Scouts.

Edited September 7, 2015 by David CO

[qwazse]

I guess this is where the rubber hits the road: if there is an opening with an across-the-board "this is how it's done", I'm against it.

Troops need the latitude to ogranize in ways that work for them, then compare notes about what works and what they'd do differently.

 

To manage the middle school age challenges, troops might rely on venturing as a "stick" for their best behaved kids. Or some folks have told me that they envision a move to rovers for 14-18 year olds. Again, that's the kind of across-the-board change that I would avoid.

[Peregrinator]

Rovers would be more appropriate for 18+

[gumbymaster]

On the topic of the boys being "distracted" - this is true, but only to a certian extent, and can be exploited to advantage.

With the explorer post I was in, because were were around each other for long periods of time (and as almost none of us attended the same school - it was a very geographically diverse explorer post), The boy-girl thing really became a non-issue quickly, even when we were similarly aged.

 

Now, while running a summer camp, we had a program of totems used for the scouts setting their tables to select the staff members they wanted to join them for the meal.  Unsurprisingly the women staffers' totems were usually the first to go.  Scouts showed up early to set their tables in the hopes of getting the totem's they wanted.  [(1) this was 20-30 years ago, and (2) I understand that this opens up an entirely different issue on women as objects, etc - which I hope to avoid here for now]

 

In both programs, when the women were 3 or more years older than the majority of scouts they were interacting with (teaching or otherwise), the scouts tended to be better behaved, pay more attention, and try to impress the female leader with their knowledge of the skills in question.  In those cases, anecdotally, the boys actually seemed to learn better.  In a traditional troop structure, if the patrols (or other teaching opportunities) were co-ed, I actually think the younger boys would do better.

 

All of that said, I still believe that boys deserve and need a place where they can be boys (particularly in the tween, and young teens), if not Boy Scouts, I don't know where else that could be.

 

So really we have to ask ourselves, if we were to consider going co-ed, what is our real reason ...

(1) because it would be good for the girls (who were interested)?

(2) because it would have some benefit for the boys?  If so, what?

(3) because it would increase membership (say 15-25%, based on  my explorer experiences), and that would be good for the bsa program?

(4) because outside pressure will eventually try to force us to, because they don't like boys having boy only things; and it would be nice to be ahead of the political pressure for once?

(5) because we think that the goals and ideals of scouting really apply to all youth, and we want to do what we can to realize it?

(6) some other reason?

[qwazse]

6) because it would be good for America!

 

Seriously, I really wouldn't consider the notion if I didn't think this country needs this sort of thing. That said, I'm also open to the notion that BSA might not be the one to offer it. But if so, who?

Edited September 8, 2015 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

ere for now]

 

In both programs, when the women were 3 or more years older than the majority of scouts they were interacting with (teaching or otherwise), the scouts tended to be better behaved, pay more attention, and try to impress the female leader with their knowledge of the skills in question.  In those cases, anecdotally, the boys actually seemed to learn better.  In a traditional troop structure, if the patrols (or other teaching opportunities) were co-ed, I actually think the younger boys would do better.

 

You are applying your observations of post puberty behavior with pre-puberty boys. It is not the same. Nature has wired us to learn about 90% of our behavior from observing others by the time we reach puberty. That is why role modeling is so important at that age. In fact, it is important for both genders to have good role models of the same gender so that they see themselves in their role models. How we learn after puberty is different, so it isn’t as important.

 

Barry