What if the Boy Scouts went coed?

[desertrat77]

Barry, I have no doubt your troop was traditional and a darn good one at that.   My experiences, moving a great deal over the course my military career, showed that there are not so many traditional units left.   Starting in the late 80s, scouting began a slow transition to something, and it sure wasn't traditional scouting.   The BSA that you and I recall previously exists only in pockets.   Truly, the ship has sailed.

 

My support of coed BSA is based what a forum member said so well earlier:   the girls that would join the BSA want outdoor adventure, and they generally get along better with boys.   They'd rather be with boys than hang around other girls talking about hair and nails.   They don't want to change the BSA, they want join the BSA and do BSA things.   Yes, they are still girls, still feminine, but they want to chop wood and back pack and sit around shooting the breeze with the boys.  (This describes my daughter and her female venture crew mates to a "T").

 

There's been a great deal of concern about boys being allowed to be boys, girls upstaging the boys, etc, so don't let the girls join.   I respectfully submit that this is admiration of a problem rather than a solution.   If boys and girls in the United States are truly that awkward, then all would be better served by learning to be around the opposite gender earlier in life rather than later.

Edited September 6, 2015 by desertrat77

[Eagledad]

Ah I see what you are saying desertrat, but we we are talking about two separate situations. And I'm saying that if the BSA allows girls, your daughter might get the program you suggest, but her daughter won't. Nor will her son.

 

Everyone would be better off investing their time and money into Campfire Kids.

 

Barry

[Cambridgeskip]

this is a side track to the original point of the thread, and

playing devil's advocate here....

but maybe cubs is the problem.  My 7 year old 2nd grade daughter is a first year Brownie this year.... they have on the books a trip or two that have been specified as not family friendly.  I'm not exactly sure of how they put it... but my wife says they don't want parents along.  The cub scout leader in me says that screams ypt red flag... I don't like it..... But maybe.....

just maybe.... cubs shouldn't be so family friendly.....

This is something that I find quite interesting to read because it describes cubs in the UK quite well. Family camping is extremely rare. Some groups might do it once a year but even that is the exception. It really is like a scaled down scouts with sixes instead of patrols.

 

Of course it's far more adult intensive and adult lead than scouts and you may get a parent or two invited along to help out but that's about it.

 

Do you really never have cubs camping just as a group of cubs with their regular adult leaders?

[Cambridgeskip]

Ah I see what you are saying desertrat, but we we are talking about two separate situations. And I'm saying that if the BSA allows girls, your daughter might get the program you suggest, but her daughter won't. Nor will her son.

Everyone would be better off investing their time and money into Campfire Kids.

Barry

Barry

 

If you look around the world the majority of national scout organisations have gone coed. Some may look different to BSA auperficially as they have changed things like the award scheme or uniform underneath they are all very much the same, it's about getting young people outdoors and developing them into decent citizens.

 

Why should BSA not be able to it successfully?

 

I don't think they should have to by the way, I just don't get why you think they can't.

[Stosh]

Do you really never have cubs camping just as a group of cubs with their regular adult leaders?

 

On the Cub Scout level, I believe our G2SS insists that at least one parent must accompany their son on any overnight activity.  There is no such thing as Cubs camping with just their adult leaders.

 

By the way, when I was a Cub back in the 1950's, there was no camping ever done with the packs I was involved with.  It was all Den Mother run and it was always some fun activity or short trek to see something.  I remember touring the local newspaper and saw them typeset, visited the fire department, etc.  It was always entertaining and fun.  Parents were not around, just the Den Mother and many a helper or two with the rides and more complicated activities.

 

We never had any Cub Scout Day Camp kinds of things where it took massive amounts of adult to keep hundreds of kids busy with basically summer camp with no overnight camping.  I found that by the time they reached Boy Scouts, they were no longer interested in the local council camp because they had pretty much "been there, done that" with everything the camp had to offer and now with 7 years ahead of them in Boy Scouts, the local camp is no longer an option.

[Peregrinator]

My support of coed BSA is based what a forum member said so well earlier:   the girls that would join the BSA want outdoor adventure, and they generally get along better with boys.   They'd rather be with boys than hang around other girls talking about hair and nails.   They don't want to change the BSA, they want join the BSA and do BSA things.   Yes, they are still girls, still feminine, but they want to chop wood and back pack and sit around shooting the breeze with the boys.  (This describes my daughter and her female venture crew mates to a "T").

But what if the boys don't want that?

[Stosh]

Why would the boys join BOY scouts if they wanted to hang out with girls.  That's like having a football program that does soccer and rugby as well.  Makes perfectly good sense to me.   

[desertrat77]

But what if the boys don't want that?

What if they do?

 

I don't pose the question just to be argumentative.   My daughter's venture crew regularly interacts with the troop from their shared CO.   From what I've seen and my daughter tells me, there are few gender issues, even at council and district events.

 

PS The gender issues:  all in the normal experience of life and resolved by the scouts themselves.

Edited September 6, 2015 by desertrat77

[desertrat77]

Why would the boys join BOY scouts if they wanted to hang out with girls.  That's like having a football program that does soccer and rugby as well.  Makes perfectly good sense to me.   

Stosh, they are joining an organization, not designing it.   I think we might be surprised if we knew their opinions on the subject.  My daughter has received positive responses from interacting with scouts from troops at district and council events. 

[Stosh]

Stosh, they are joining an organization, not designing it.   I think we might be surprised if we knew their opinions on the subject.  My daughter has received positive responses from interacting with scouts from troops at district and council events. 

 

Maybe so, but they are wanting to join an organization designed and intended for males.  It doesn't make any difference what other people's opinion is.  My opinion of what my next door neighbor does is of no importance to the rest of the world.  They run their own show in their family, I'm not a part of that process.  It's none of my business and if I want to do what they're doing, I'll do it in my own family.  

 

And to answer @@Peregrinator if there is only one troop in town and the adults want it co-ed and your son doesn't want that, he isn't welcome in the BOY Scout program in that community.  He's SOL, too bad.  So the alternative is TLUSA or some other guy hang-out organization in town, if there is any.  There is no such thing as BOY Scouts in today's world and that's Peregrinator's point, maybe there should be what the organization intended in the first place.  50 years ago it was all male and at it's peak of importance in society.  Today is it no longer all male and it's membership and prestige has declined steadily.  Show show me evidence where that has been a good thing.

 

Using created numbers,  assume that the membership of 100 boys 50 years ago is now co-ed venturing/adult leadership, etc. what we have today is reduced membership to say 50 with half being female means that the number of boys in a BOY scout program is only a fraction of what it used to be.  So much for the improvements in the program.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Stosh

[desertrat77]

Stosh, I understand your points.   It occurred to me, after my second cup of coffee, to offer up this anecedote:

 

I went to Philmont as a 14 year old, as shy and awkward a youth as you could meet.   I came up thru very traditional cub and scouting programs.   Philmont was the first place I worked with female Rangers/Explorer scouts.

 

I was impressed.   They were confident, mixed well with everyone, knew how to handle jerks without turning things into a Supreme Court case, etc.   And they knew their outdoor skills, quite well.

 

It was an eye opener for me.   Though I could not articulate it at the time, there were two reasons why they were great scouts:   they were young women of character, and they lived by the scout oath and law.

 

One more thought:   I too lament the loss of the traditional program.   I'm as staunch a traditionalist as you care to meet.   My favorite pack is still the canvas Yucca.   But the BSA hasn't been traditional in awhile, and is getting less traditional every day.   Letting a few girls join who value traditional scouting isn't going to hurt the movement.

[Eagledad]

Barry

If you look around the world the majority of national scout organisations have gone coed. Some may look different to BSA auperficially as they have changed things like the award scheme or uniform underneath they are all very much the same, it's about getting young people outdoors and developing them into decent citizens.

Why should BSA not be able to it successfully?

I don't think they should have to by the way, I just don't get why you think they can't.

It's not that I don't think they can't, it's that they can't do it and maintain the quality of the program today. I think I explain the reasoning pretty well in the other post.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

And as I can attest from my youth experience, the role models in the scouting program I had were all male from Explorers on up.  The only female was my various Den Mothers from Cub Scouts.  I was just as impressed with the quality of their character and commitment.  Had any of them been female, I wouldn't have looked up to them as a role model.  I wanted to grow up to be a guy, not a gal.  Was I part of co-ed groups?  Sure, a ton of school clubs, church youth groups, community based youth programs, school itself were all co-ed.  I needed BOY scouts so I could hang with my buddies.

 

I was not into the girlfriend scene until college.  I worked from late grade school all the way through my life and in those early years, asking a girl out meant I had to foot the bill for the both of us.  Heck, no girl was worth that.  By the college years, Dutch treat was becoming popular so then it was okay.  Like I said before when it came to any and all activities outside the family, I needed to pick up my own tab.  Parents couldn't afford much beyond providing for the family.

 

So in today's world where would I fit in?  I would I find an all-boys group to join?  BSA USED to be the last bastion of safety for boys growing up.  What have we got now?  Nothing but repetitive same-old, same-old, in any of the youth organizations offered in today's society.  Schools, Churches, social organizations, all are co-ed (no wonder sexual identity is all screwed up).  Where's the man-cave of adventure and chivalry for young males?  It doesn't exist in America I guess.  What do I find wrong with any of this?  Nothing.  Co-ed school groups are fine.  Co-ed Church groups are fine.  Co-ed social organizations are fine.  But when one signs up for BOY Scouts and GIRL Scouts, one ought to get what the package promotes.  If I bought a can of peas and when I got home it was mixed vegetables, I'd be heading back to the store.  That's not what I signed on for.  

Edited September 6, 2015 by Stosh

[Peregrinator]

PS The gender issues:  all in the normal experience of life and resolved by the scouts themselves.

A young man might act quite respectably around young ladies while still not feeling entirely comfortable around them.

 

One of the aims of scouting is to bring out the individual character in each of the boys. I submit that that is hard enough to accomplish when all of the other members of the troop are boys. Adding girls to the troop will make it exponentially more difficult.

[NJCubScouter]

I have no further comment on the question of which section this thread should be in, except to say this:

 

Now that it has been moved, I have "un-hidden" a post by SeattlePioneer (on page 2 of the thread) that was hidden by another moderator, apparently on the basis that this thread was (at the time) in Open Discussion and the post in question is clearly (more than any of the other posts in the thread) of a political nature. With the thread now being in "politics" there is no reason for that post to remain hidden, and after obtaining the consent of the moderator who hid it, it is now open for public view.

 

My belief that this particular post should be open for viewing was part of my reason for moving the thread to I&P, but I did not feel free to talk about a hidden post before getting permission from the other moderator to un-hide it.