What if the Boy Scouts went coed?

[SpEdScouter]

I'd like to ask you all, how many of you have seen girls doing cub scout, webelos and boy scout activities "under the table"?

[Eagle94-A1]

It won't happen here due to the GSUSA, but I could see the Finnish model working (at least the one they had in 1995) in the USA easily.

 

Cub Scouts is co-ed

 

From 11-14 gender segregated. Girls work on the Girl Guide ranks, Boys work on the Boy Scout ranks.  I don'[t know what the differences in requirements are/ were,  But I think this was to keep each groups highest awards in place.

 

15-21 is co-ed again.

[Stosh]

With the agreement with GSUSA of not going co-ed, how does BSA get away with STEM co-ed?  Like GSUSA only worries about the outdoor stuff that they don't do anyway?

[Eagledad]

I'm not sure what you're saying here...are you saying that because women were accepted in the troop program as adult volunteers (both as ASMs and Committee members I'm assuming), that the quality of the program suffered?

Yes! Not because they are a female, but because the number of inexperienced volunteers tripled. Before the BSA accepted women volunteers, 1 out of 4 volunteers didn't have a scouting experience. Now it's roughly 3 out of 4. You said it yourself, it takes three years of training AND experience to be a good leader. Most volunteers with a youth experience are running as soon as their feet hit the ground. The average volunteer without a scouting experience is three years behind a volunteer with experience.

 

And it's more than that, experienced volunteers understand the fun side of scouting. The little things that aren't in the manuals. They bring in and support traditions that make the experience extra special. One of the best traditions I see going away in today's troops are camp fires. Adults today didn't experience the benefits of them, so they don't understand the value of them and are letting them go because the scouts don't enjoy them. They don't enjoy them because they are doing them wrong. And boy run has lost its meaning as well. One SM on this forum basically defines boy run as kicking scouts out in the woods and not participating unless the scouts ask for help. Experienced scout masters know how to inject a little spice to the experience.

 

inexperienced volunteers are short sighted because the don't understand the long range vision from a scouts perspective. They tend to drive program torward tangible targets like rank and advancement because those are easy to measure the quality of the efforts. But experienced scouters understand the value of free time, camp fires, and games. I once got a call from the new SM of a new troop who called me after their sixth camp out and said his scouts were getting bored on the camp outs. He admitted they only worked on scout skills all day long. When I asked about free time, it never occurred to him to let scouts have unstructured time on their own. The thought of it scared him because they would just get in trouble.

 

The number one complaint about Girl Scouts is they do very little camping. Well Da!, 98% of their leaders are women and it's fair to guess that 85% or more of them have a little camping experience. And my experience with female leaders from both programs is most aren't very excited to get that experience. A few are gung ho, but it's not the majority. Because of my reputation for working with struggling programs, I was asked to help a new troop in a different council. The troop had 8 unexperienced volunteers. When I observed the troop meeting, the adults performed the opening flag ceremony. Actually the did the whole ceremony. They explained that the scouts weren't mature enough to do the opening themselves, so they were doing it until they felt the boys had the maturity. I have many such examples. And now we're are discussing of adding more girls, which will increase the number of inexperienced volunteers to the program.

 

Inexperienced volunteers are choking the tradition part of the program out of boy scouting. The part that so many here say makes the BSA a better program. That is my reasoning behind my original statement.

 

And God bless you for your hard work. Many troops are struggling to find enough volunteers to run their program. But that is a different problem and a different discussion.

 

Barry

Edited September 5, 2015 by Eagledad

[desertrat77]

 

Inexperienced volunteers are choking the tradition part of the program out of boy scouting. The part that so many here say makes the BSA a better program. That is my reasoning behind my original statement.

 

 

Barry, from your perspective:  why did the old timers leave?   Why do experienced, dynamic outdoorsmen/women leave the BSA shortly after signing up, or refuse to join at all?

[Eagledad]

Barry, from your perspective: why did the old timers leave? Why do experienced, dynamic outdoorsmen/women leave the BSA shortly after signing up, or refuse to join at all?

Your personal observations are different from mind. Volunteers who leave the program and adults who don't join at are part of the pool of all available adults in the community, not just specific groups like old timers and outdoorsmen. And the problem is a cultural trend where parents have less time with their families and as a result are changing their time priorities.

 

I'm not sure of the solution, I'm sure the cause is more complicated than one easy change. Many here know that I think the Cub program is way to hard for the average parent to manage and needs trim down so it doesn't burn out its adults. But my suggestion is a bit contriversal because I propose scaling the program down by removing or at least splitting off the Tigers program.

 

But this is a different discussion that should start with a new title.

 

Barry

Edited September 5, 2015 by Eagledad

[blw2]

I'd like to ask you all, how many of you have seen girls doing cub scout, webelos and boy scout activities "under the table"?

what I have seen is the occasional sister joining in on a meeting or especially the camping trips and other outings.

How often?.... more than I can count for you....

as an active scouter, with two daughters younger than my WEBELOS scout, my girls.. espacailly my middle daughter, have done quite a bit.  In the pack, there have been a fair number of other sisters along here and there.....

Not coming to every meeting consistently, but they're along at meetings, outings, activities, etc....

[desertrat77]

Your personal observations are different from mind. Volunteers who leave the program and adults who don't join at are part of the pool of all available adults in the community, not just specific groups like old timers and outdoorsmen. And the problem is a cultural trend where parents have less time with their families and as a result are changing their time priorities.

 

 

I guess I missed the point...if we are talking about keeping the program traditional, it hasn't been traditional in awhile.  At any level.    The folks that made scouting traditional left the organization or retired a long time ago.   There are plenty of folks that would make great scout leaders but they won't come near the BSA, for a variety of reasons.   True, parents have less time for their kids, but that is only part of the reason, I think.

[ghjim]

I'm starting to agree along these lines where maybe the girls could have their own sub-units or patrols within a troop but still do all the merit badges, rank advancements, and still come to the camps. A sort of "sister" program for girls age 11-14. The big issue is what to call it since "Girl Scouts" is already used.

I think that is what the Baden-Powell scouts are trying to do.   I am thinking that from 11-14 troops would be segregated, thus allowing "boys to be boys" and "girls to be girls" .  They would merge at the Venturing level (what we used to call "Explorers").  Girls troops and Boys troops could intermix at summer camp, maybe OA events. No need for a "sister" program, all the same program.    I remember when girls were allowed into Explorers (around 1972 I think).  It seems to me that it was an incredible boost to the Explorer program at the time.

[Peregrinator]

The BPSA is, I think, totally co-ed - well, leaving it a local option. Other traditional scouting associations (e.g. the Adventurers Association of Baden-Powell, or AABP, in Canada) are not.

[Eagle94-A1]

Because Cub Scout camping is family camping, I see sisters camping and doing stuff all the time, and it is perfectly acceptible.

 

Only time I ever saw sisters being a problem in Cub Scouts was the first time my council ran a council level CS family camp out. The PTB, essentially BS leaders trying to get this ball rolling, A. could not understand why a pack with X number attending needed twice the space a troop the same size, and B. only took into planning the number of Cubs and not total youth.

[blw2]

Because Cub Scout camping is family camping, I see sisters camping and doing stuff all the time, and it is perfectly acceptible.

 

Only time I ever saw sisters being a problem in Cub Scouts was the first time my council ran a council level CS family camp out. The PTB, essentially BS leaders trying to get this ball rolling, A. could not understand why a pack with X number attending needed twice the space a troop the same size, and B. only took into planning the number of Cubs and not total youth.

this is a side track to the original point of the thread, and

playing devil's advocate here....

but maybe cubs is the problem.  My 7 year old 2nd grade daughter is a first year Brownie this year.... they have on the books a trip or two that have been specified as not family friendly.  I'm not exactly sure of how they put it... but my wife says they don't want parents along.  The cub scout leader in me says that screams ypt red flag... I don't like it..... But maybe.....

just maybe.... cubs shouldn't be so family friendly.....

[Eagle94-A1]

Back when I was in Cubs, it was "Dad and Lad Weekend." But with the increasing number of divorced and single mom families, it morphed to parent and cub weekends, and has morphed once again to family camping.

 

Genie is out the bottle, and I don't think we can put it back in.

[qwazse]

So, let me get this straight ...

 

We complain that female leaders are coming in 3 years behind in training. Hmmm I wonder what we could do to get females trained three years earlier in first class scouting skills?

 

We complain about adults who never get trained in scouting skills. Hmmm, I wonder if there is an awards track that adults could follow to know for sure they understand what a youth in our program learns?

 

We complain about mindless once-and-done beureaucratic poppycock requirements that boys know are dumbed down for them. Hmmm, I wonder if there's a group of kids who would love the challenge of these requirements and add life to the troop?

 

We complain about kids getting dumped in the woods, and about them not getting dumped enough.

 

Look, there's always going to be something we are doing wrong. But the big question is: can we open up access to some simple things that will allow some more people to do something right!

[Eagledad]

I guess I missed the point...if we are talking about keeping the program traditional, it hasn't been traditional in awhile. At any level. The folks that made scouting traditional left the organization or retired a long time ago. There are plenty of folks that would make great scout leaders but they won't come near the BSA, for a variety of reasons. True, parents have less time for their kids, but that is only part of the reason, I think.

Sorry, I misunderstood your question and honestly still don't quite understand it. If you were to visit our troop while I was the SM, I'm curious what part you would think wasn't traditional.

 

My point is that when 3/4 of new scouters who join the program every day have no experience or knowledge of the BSA outdoor program and vision, the BSA will have to change to accommodate their ignorance of the program just to keep the program functional. . Remember, The new series of training courses published by national in 2000 was a reaction to the admittance of women leaders in troops in 1990. I'm saying admitting girls will accelerate that situation even faster and it won't accelerate toward the traditional side of scouting.

 

Admitting girls will quietly take the outing out of scouting in the BSA.

 

Barry

Edited September 6, 2015 by Eagledad