NJCubScouter Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I think this thread has probably crossed the border into "Issues and Politics" territory (or at least, "Issues"), so I am moving it. There will still be a "redirect" from the original location but future posts will not be featured in the "Recent Posts" listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I think this thread has probably crossed the border into "Issues and Politics" territory (or at least, "Issues"), so I am moving it. There will still be a "redirect" from the original location but future posts will not be featured in the "Recent Posts" listing. Interesting, where did it cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Boy Scouts started out as an all male organization for the development of how males involve themselves in the adult world. Courtesy, moral character development, basic emergency skills, etc. How to be a male in society was pretty much the goal. The Girl Guides did their thing for young women. Well, that process went out the window about 50 years ago. Everyone has to have the same opportunities and so no one gets specific training in what it means to be male or female. Now that this thread has moved to I&P I can say that, right? I'm not being judgmental, but males used to understand what their role in life was socially supposed to be and the same for females. Nope, not any more, anything goes, so your own thing, hang out, set yourself free so to speak. Well, once the doobie was gone and real life set in, our lives of non-definition have led to all kinds of new therapies, syndromes and role confusion. Yeah, my generation may have been the last of the chauvinists, but one at least knows where we stand. What can one say about the succeeding generations? Do they know where they stand on anything? Save the Whales......one's kids may need weekly therapy, but the whales are okay. So, my rant is over, but what role is BSA trying to define for it's male members or is BSA now redefining itself as Scouts of America because it really doesn't know it's role development program? Edited September 4, 2015 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Interesting, where did it cross? It was an accumulation of comments over time. I am not going to identify specific posts that contributed to my decision. As I assume (or at least hope) you understand, these things are not a matter of precise mathematical certainty. I will also say that to my recollection, virtually all past discussions of the "girls" issue have either started out or ended up in the I&P section. This thread has been mostly about "program" but I decided there was enough about "issues" that it needed to be moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Makes no sense to me NJ. Where past discussions have gone should have no bearing on this or another discussion and just about all discussions all over the boards have some issues type comments mixed in. This discussion was pretty much about program. It was very educational because thoughts and opinions were based from actual scouting experiences and observations, not emotional bias. And the participants did a good job keeping it on track and balanced. Your moderating intruded and it is not obvious to me why. I'm not sure you even know why, but something. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Does it really matter which thread it is in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Does it really matter which thread it is in? Issues and Politics discussions aren't listed on the Latest Post column (why is that?) and many folks don't like to go into the Issues and Politics forum discussions because their tone are sometimes unfriendly. So putting a discussion here is like hiding it in a mushroom cave. Girls in the BSA discussions comes up about every three months and aren't typically informative because the opinions are usually based by emotion and political correctness. This discussion actually had some balance pragmatic information that folks could actually form opinions based from reason. It was a good discussion. Oh well. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I&P is a little like the Dead Letter department of the US Post Office. It's basically the kiss of death for the thread for a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghjim Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Amen to THAT! I'd welcome the girls. From what I've seen they'd provide some badly needed (and possibly superior) competition for the guys. Why would girls and boys have to be together at the unit level? Why not have girls troops and boys troops, and they can intermix at Jamborees, etc. I have a vivid memory of a TR (Training Ranger) I knew at Philmont when I was on staff in 1975. I remember her complaining about not having been able to be an Eagle scout.... Girls should have access to the grittier program that BSA offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA Scout Mom Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I don't think many folks including me expected much of a change to the program when women were accepted into the the troop program. But after observing the program for the last 20 or so years, I believe that policy has devastated the quality of the program simply because it tripled the number of inexperienced volunteers. Barry I'm not sure what you're saying here...are you saying that because women were accepted in the troop program as adult volunteers (both as ASMs and Committee members I'm assuming), that the quality of the program suffered? Maybe your troop has men leaping to the fore to volunteer in your troop but that's certainly not the case in our troop! Without the moms, we might not have much of a troop! We hardly have any dads who participate currently. It's the same ones who go on outings and who help at the troop meetings.. We just brought in some new Scouts from the Webelo den of which I was the den leader and we will now see many more dads participating because our Cub Scout pack has trained all the parents to participate. But, our troop committee is made up largely of the moms. Many of the parents work long hours in our area to be able to afford to live here and simply don't and can't participate as much due to their work commitments. One dad is usually gone 1-2 weeks/month because he travels to various places around the world doing risk management for one of the biggest mall developers in the US. He comes to the meetings when he can though. Many of the women volunteers, especially the ones who have run the popcorn sales, have done a bang-up job. I'm the Membership Chair/Registrar and I spend a lot of time working on recruiting and dealing with registrations. Some of the other moms are the ones who go to summer camp because dads can't take off 7 days. Also, adult volunteers need time to learn how Scouting works--it's taken me about 2-3 years to be comfortable and feel knowledgeable about the Scout program but I have absorbed it and feel qualified to be in the position I'm in. So I beg to differ with your statement that "the policy [of accepting women] has devastated the quality of the program." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Naw, the jist of the discussion when it comes to female BOY Scout leaders is that people have come to the conclusion that females can develop our young boys better than males for the roles they will be playing in our current and future societal needs. Young boys developing into the kind of male character model of the early 20th century is of little or no value today. Did I get that right? Once we get the female Boy Scouts in the program to take over the leadership roles of the youth, then the handwriting on the wall for the boys will become a lot clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 I think this thread has probably crossed the border into "Issues and Politics" territory (or at least, "Issues"), so I am moving it. There will still be a "redirect" from the original location but future posts will not be featured in the "Recent Posts" listing. Interesting, where did it cross? It was an accumulation of comments over time. I am not going to identify specific posts that contributed to my decision. As I assume (or at least hope) you understand, these things are not a matter of precise mathematical certainty. I will also say that to my recollection, virtually all past discussions of the "girls" issue have either started out or ended up in the I&P section. This thread has been mostly about "program" but I decided there was enough about "issues" that it needed to be moved. I don't get it either...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sst3rd Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 We've been here before several times, but I respect all of the viewpoints. For me, I would leave. I have my memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Why would girls and boys have to be together at the unit level? Why not have girls troops and boys troops, and they can intermix at Jamborees, etc. I have a vivid memory of a TR (Training Ranger) I knew at Philmont when I was on staff in 1975. I remember her complaining about not having been able to be an Eagle scout.... Girls should have access to the grittier program that BSA offers. They wouldn't have to, that's for sure. I suspect about half would mix at the unit level, and half would be unisex (most of those male). Same for patrols within co-Ed units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpEdScouter Posted September 5, 2015 Author Share Posted September 5, 2015 Why would girls and boys have to be together at the unit level? Why not have girls troops and boys troops, and they can intermix at Jamborees, etc. I have a vivid memory of a TR (Training Ranger) I knew at Philmont when I was on staff in 1975. I remember her complaining about not having been able to be an Eagle scout.... Girls should have access to the grittier program that BSA offers. I'm starting to agree along these lines where maybe the girls could have their own sub-units or patrols within a troop but still do all the merit badges, rank advancements, and still come to the camps. A sort of "sister" program for girls age 11-14. The big issue is what to call it since "Girl Scouts" is already used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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