What if the Boy Scouts went coed?

[Rick_in_CA]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not aware of any significant clamoring in "society" for Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts to become coed. I see nothing in the media about it. (Unlike, for example, the "gay issue", before the changes were made... or going further back, the "female adult leader" issue, before those changes were made.) I don't hear people in my community or in my troop talking about it. Admittedly I do not hang out with Cub Scout parents much anymore, but the parents/leaders involved in the troop who are still involved with Cub Scouts don't mention it as an issue that they hear about. I'm not aware of any "outside groups" that have this as their big issue. When Robert Gates comes to the podium and makes a speech or the new CSE lists his four priorities for growth, neither of them are saying we have to have female Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts or we're all doomed.

 

It's just not a subject that I hear talked about or written about - except in one place, and that's in this forum. But in my opinion some of us here imagine it is a much bigger issue "out there" than it really is.

It's discussed in my area. Mostly at the cub scout level (at recruiting nights we often get parents asking, can I sign up my daughter too?). It's brought up at round table from time to time (my daughter really wishes she could join now instead of waiting until she is 14). But I agree that there isn't a huge hue-and-cry about it. The consensus appears to me to be "we will join the rest of the civilized world eventually and go coed, just not today".

 

One of the interesting things I have observed is that there are a lot of scouters that don't realize that venturing is coed (they appear to be scouters that don't have much contact with venturing and don't know much about it). There is a coed venture crew that is a band that often play at scout events such as round table bbqs and Scout-O-Rama. I continually surprised when I hear scouters identify the female bad members as girl scouts. I encountered two scouters at Scout-O-Rama actually arguing over whether the female band members were girl scouts or AHG. When I explained too them that the girls were members of the venturing crew, they initially didn't believe me until we spoke to one of the crew leaders.

 

Basically the fact that venturing is coed is below the radar for a lot of people. My fear is that if we went fully coed at all levels tomorrow, we would see some truly ridiculous YPT rules added as well to try and assuage the fearful.

[HopefullyEagleSoon]

No, actually they are fully cooperating. There has been an unwritten longtime agreement by the two organizations to stay away from each others memberships. That is why I'm not worried about the BSA changing it's policy to accept girls. Still, this has been one of the best intellectual discussion on this subject I've ever seen on this forum. For the most part, emotion and political correctness has been left out leaving the benefits and repercussions as the main topic.

 

Also what has been left out is how the adult side will comform to such a change. As I said, I don't think it would go very well because it would encourage more unscout (outdoor activities) like adults to lead the youth into a less scout like program. One of the bigger challenges of a Cub pack is getting good Webelos leaders who want to bring more outdoor skills into the program to get the Webelos ready for a troop program. The reason that is a challenge is because the majority of the Wolf/Bear leaders don't have that kind of experience and don't really want it. Those same adults are the majority of leaders in today's Girl Scout Troops, That is the huge challenge the BSA would have to contend with when bringing in girls. And honestly I don't think there are enough girls who are demanding a boy scout type program to take the risk.

 

As I said I'm pretty selfish about this, if bringing in girls has ANY negative effect on the boys side of the program, then it's a bad deal for the BSA and a bad deal for my son. I'm not willing to compromise a good program just provide a better program for a few girls.

 

Some of you folks have provided some really good stuff in this discussion. But I have seen nothing that makes feel admitting girls would be a benefit for the boys.

 

But it is a really good discussion and I'm listening.

 

Barry

Excuse me, im new to this forum, and im not sure about rules on necroposting, but from the perspective of a scout, I think that there are things me and my friends do we wouldnt do around girls, and we need time to do that, but I also believe that coed experiences would be beneficial, in the way being able to act appropriately around the opposite sex is important. (although that may just be the fact that meeting a girl who loves outdoors the way I do sounds awesome to me) 

[Stosh]

@@HopefullyEagleSoon Welcome to the forum.  Newbies can go back and drag out any and all old threads they wish.  As a matter of fact, even us Oldies can do that when we get a new thought on an old subject.

 

By the way, I met my outdoorsy wife outside of scouting. 

[qwazse]

Excuse me, im new to this forum, and im not sure about rules on necroposting, but from the perspective of a scout, I think that there are things me and my friends do we wouldnt do around girls, and we need time to do that, but I also believe that coed experiences would be beneficial, in the way being able to act appropriately around the opposite sex is important. (although that may just be the fact that meeting a girl who loves outdoors the way I do sounds awesome to me) 

 

There are no dead posts, just not enough new insights! Therefore, @HopefullyEagleSoon your opinion matters the most.

 

So, here's a question, if troops were allowed to be co-ed, but didn't have to be, would your problem be solved? For example, I know a Czech scout who in his district has one all-boys, one all-girls, and his troop is co-ed. (Remember, the post that started this thread was about an all-female group.) Or, do you think this might make things worse?

 

P.S. - Yeah, an outdoors-woman is cool. But Son #1 basically converted his into just that. So don't write ladies off just because they never have camped out.  Just focus on important stuff (like, Is she rich? Can she cook?), be a decent chap yourself, and the rest will probably fall into place.

[Hedgehog]

It is interesting that this thread popped up today.  Over the weekend, I had a conversation with my son, one of his girl friends (notice the space between the words) and her mom about Venturing.  The consensus was it would be VERY COOL.  Add my son's best friend and the girl's best friend and we've got 4.  I mentioned it in an e-mail on another topic to one of my fellow Assistant Scoutmasters and his daughter would be on board with one of her friends.  So, I'm up to 6 potential crew members.  My sense is 10 to 12 is the right number and that won't be difficult to get to.  

 

What have I gotten myself into?

[scoutldr]

I met my wife at church, not at scouts, but she was a "First Class" Girl Scout (equivalent to Eagle SCout back then).  Those who share the same values have a much better chance at "making it" IMHO.  When my Explorer Post went co-ed, she refused to join...probably a good decision.  We've been together for more than 51 years, married for 41 as of tomorrow!

[Horizon]

We have a new crew starting up, based on the little sister of one of our Scouts turning 14. The girls will transition in from a local Girl Scout unit (they might double register), boys from our Troop plus a couple I assume. I think as more successful Crews go coed, we might see more interest.

 

Oh - @HopefullyEagleSoon - I met my outdoorsy wife in college. She has her GSA Gold, I have my Eagle, and we compare notes regularly.

[hieudo]

My scout troop out of Houston, TX has been co-ed for 30+ years.  You guys are over thinking this...  We register w/ BSA and GSUSA, and our range is from Daises to Seniors and Tigers to Venture.  Our troops, patrols and dens are not mixed, but we do everything together.  Just as in school or family, it's natural for the whole family to be together (Mom's, dad's brothers and sisters).  There no weirdness or hinderenced of our programs, we take the best of each program and progress.  There are times when we do separate unit level activities, but by and large we are cohesive and it works.

[meyerc13]

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing this.  That picture may be the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.  Maybe instead of fighting with our local Girl Scout Troop over who gets the rooms at the school on which night, our Cub Scout Pack should join with them?  This seems so simple, but yet so radical at the same time.  While you guys seem to have figured it out at a unit level, I'm curious what your units do as far as District/Council events and summer camp?  I don't know of many >Unit Level events or camps that are open to GSUSA/BSA at the same time.

[T2Eagle]

That is an impressive picture.

[hieudo]

Council and district events only make up 20-30% of our outings (we have to pick and choose because we have so many)... those are the ones we participate as a traditional pack / troop / patrol.  But events such as the pinewood derby, rocket launches, fishing trips, camping trips, etc... are done together.  Since its one giant group, we pool from all of our units resources, leaders and skill sets, it's not uncommon for our older kids (boys or girls depend who's free) to work w/ your younger kids on a regular basis.  We all meet at the same place / time every weekend.  Another benefit is the path from cub/brownie through college and leadership is very clear.  I am the cub master of the pack was I a part of 30 years ago as a bear, and soon to be replaced by a cub that I mentored while I was in college.

[meyerc13]

If I might ask another question (or three), how did this group come to exist?  I'm sure if any of us took this idea to our existing units we'd hit some major resistance.  Perhaps if it was new units created solely for the purpose of running a co-ed Scouting program it would be easier to do.

 

I'm also curious what the BSA and GSUSA (District, Council, or National) reaction was initially, and if that has changed over time as the unit's success is evident.

 

I also wonder about unit finances, are they tracked separately, or do the Cookie proceeds combine with popcorn sales to provide one large general fund?

 

So many question, because this idea while so simple is so different from anything we've seen done here in the US, that the logistics of it seem complex.

[hieudo]

As someone said in a previous post, the international community has be coed for ages.  So when Vietnamese scouting came to the US, it's always ingrained in our forefathers to be together.  Unit finances are tracked separately just as a traditional units are, but we have help each other on fundraising efforts to go to summer camp, etc...  If you think of it as a large eco-system, even when one unit supports another, its an investment in ourselves to have a consistently high program for our kids for their entire scouting journey.

Maybe our FB can shed some light

https://www.facebook.com/LDHDLaVang/

[Ankylus]

Let's start from this premise, which I think is undeniable: boys and girls are different, and they are interested in different things. A sweeping generalization to be sure. We all know that there are girls who are very much like boys and like the same things as boys. When I was growing up we called them "tomboys", I term I don't hear much anymore. Conversely, there are boys who are very much like girls and like the same things as girls. But on the whole, they are different, behave differently, and react differently to the same stimuli. If you can't admit that there are basic physiological and emotional differences between boys and girls, then this conversation is useless.

 

This is important, because BSA is a large organization and, like all large organizations, it operates on metrics. They will look at the numbers of participants, the number of boys, and the number of girls and will change program according to what they perceive will boost membership. Since the program is currently oriented for boys, you can bet your bottom dollar they will alter the program to make it less about what boys like and more about what girls like. This may be good, or it may be bad, but it will happen.

 

For example, Girl Scouts has camping as a part of its program. Most of what they call camping isn't even tent camping. My daughter's troop always had trouble with the camping because (1) the girls weren't enthusiastic, and (2) the leaders didn't want to go. In general, camping is not anywhere near as large a part of the program for Girl Scouts as it is for Boy Scouts. You think that is an accident or a mistake? No. Each program is responding to the needs/wants of its members and the importance of camping to the program reflects that.

 

So, the result is that Boy Scouts will become more like Girls Scouts. Not completely, of course. But my exposure to the Girl Scout program through my daughter  leads me to believe that will be entirely negative for the boys.

 

Why can't we just have one venue in American life for non-athletic boys where they can be the focus and the program is tailored to them?

[meyerc13]

I'm sorry, Ankylus, but I don't agree.  Most of the girls who are interested in joining BSA are interested because the BSA stresses camping and the outdoors.  Opening up membership to them wouldn't dilute the program for the boys.  If it can work in the rest of the world, it can work here.

 

I don't disagree that there are differences between girls and boys.  However, we can't discount the fact that some of the differences we see are learned.  Take LEGO.  Both boys and girls like to build LEGO, but over the years LEGO had marketed more and more to boys.  I was in a Target store, and saw a little girl, probably around 7-8, ask her mom for a LEGO City space shuttle.  Her mom told her "No, those toys are for boys, you need to pick something out of the girls' aisle."  Why should a space shuttle be a boy toy?  Don't we have female astronauts?  I think because it was in a blue box instead of a pink box, the mom was judging it unfairly.

 

LEGO eventually realized they were missing out on half of their potential customer base.  They did a lot of research and found that it is true that boys and girls both like playing with LEGO, but found that the way boys and girls play is different. (It's fascinating research, I'd recommend reading it.)  Yet, even after that research LEGO caught a lot of flack because the new sets they initially released for girls had a pastel color set.  That, I think, was to appease the moms like the one I mention above.  What's interesting is that since the initial waves of LEGO Friends sets aimed at girls, LEGO has shifted the color palette from pinks and purples to include more browns and blacks.  Now that they've broken the learned behavior that "LEGO is for boys," they can begin to stop pandering to the crowd that thinks pink is for girls and blue is for boys.

 

It is true that we have a generation, or maybe more than one, in which most women didn't go fishing, hiking, camping, etc.  It's a shame really.  Yet when we expose moms to their first campfires and hikes, quite often they love it.  I think the problem is the GSUSA is in a downward spiral of not teaching the outdoors because the leaders (moms) aren't experienced in the outdoors.  With each generation it gets worse.  The problem isn't the girls, its the leaders and moms (I know this is a sweeping generalization, there are many moms and Girl Scout leaders who 'get it' and take their girls outside, but sadly I think they are vastly outnumbered by the crowd that thinks Scouting should be crafts and songs, no hikes or camping).

 

If anything, I think the BSA is in more danger from those moms than it is from letting girls join.  The more we allow our daughters to miss out on the outdoors, the more likely future generations of moms will fail to understand the importance of getting their boys (and girls) into the outdoors.  If the GSUSA is content to let their camps disappear and their outdoor program with it, so be it.  But then the BSA needs to do something to make sure that the moms of the future have fond memories of the outdoors.

 

Per the LEGO Study, the memories of the moms will likely be different from the memories of the dads.  The women may be more likely to remember the fun they had with friends in the outdoors, while the men may be more likely to remember the mountain they climbed.  What each gets out of Scouting doesn't ultimately matter, what matters is that they have fun in the outdoors and build those memories, and I'm afraid that won't happen if the BSA doesn't step up.