I heard you want to start a venture crew

[MattR]

That's what the sister of one of my scouts said to me tonight. And my response was "ummm, oookaaay, talk to me." Short version is she and another 7 or 8 kids, mostly girls, are in another crew and they're tired of the adults telling them what the calendar has to be. They have events and there are more adults then scouts going. They want to leave that crew and start another. Word got out that I like this whole patrol method thing and they want to do that. To make things a bit more exciting I know some of the adults in that crew. They once tried recruiting my daughter as the crew president but after they told my daughter she couldn't organize what she wanted to do, my daughter turned to me and said nope.

 

It's possible the conflict with the other crew has another side.

 

So, what is the best way to help these kids? I know they need female adults that will go on campouts with them. I'm fairly sure they are in it for the adventure and don't care about advancement. I said I'd sit down and talk with her this weekend. Should I tell her to bring her friends? My understanding of a venture crew is it's boy scouts without the weight of Eagle and hopefully more mature. They pick what their adventures are. I think they like the outdoors but they likely are not into klondike.

 

What does a crew need? What kind of adults? Gear? CO? Roundtables? Paperwork? Recruitment? I've heard plenty of people say keep it away from the troop. But maybe they share high adventure? Are there patrols in a crew? Okay, I guess I'm clueless.

 

The intriguing thing for me is that I suspect girls can get organized more easily than boys. It would also be wonderful to not deal with advancement. At the same time, I don't want to start something that is going to die as soon as I leave. In fact I'd be okay with getting their program started and doing some fun stuff with them but I don't want to be the unit leader. Apparently there is a young couple old enough to be adults that left the old crew because of the same  issues the scouts are having.

[qwazse]

@@MattR, this is a complex situation that needs a lot of untangling. If you personally know of some female adults who buy into how you've applied the patrol method, you could encourage them to get together with your CO and start a crew.

If you have an ASM who can step into your role so you can be an Advisor, that would work.

If your committee was willing to let these girls use the same location and times as troop meetings so that you would be an available resource, that could work too.

 

The BSA's patchwork system makes for extra paperwork so you would need a committee member dedicated to making sure this works for these girls.

 

A crew needs a couple of extremely flexible adults willing to get training network and ask for help at every turn. Clearly these girls need someone who takes "youth led" seriously enough to let them fail half the time. The gear depends on the adventure. Determining and procuring it is part of the adventure.

 

Maybe the current crew needs a unit commish or someone to ask "Why the iron fists?" Or, maybe they need these girls to move on to greener pasture. No way to tell.

 

Look in the mirror and ask yourself "how crazy are you?" If it talks back, you might just be it.

 

It has been someone for me to see a handful of young women go from naive to ready to hike into and bed down in the wilderness. I'm having a hard time getting that cycle to repeat, but even if it doesn't outlast my time as advisor, it will have been worth it.

[Eamonn]

_{To be very honest, I have never had much time for Venturing.}

_{Maybe because I have been so involved in traditional Boy Scouting and the structure it just wasn't a good fit for me?}

_{I do believe that we do need something for our older youth and that was my reason for starting a Sea Scout Ship.}

_{Back then Sea Scouts were part of Venturing but we just didn't tell anyone! (Joke.)}

 

_{Some of the Venturing Awards were really good - I'm thinking about the Ranger Award.}

 

_{Some Councils have somehow made Venturing work and work well. - Sadly that isn't the case where I live.}

_{Without wanting to go into details there was at one time a lot of "Paper Crews" Crews that should have been in LFL but the LFL numbers looked better if they moved into traditional membership.}

_{While Sea Scouts and Venturing are not the same.}

_{Here are a few of the problems that I ran into.}

 _{Without wanting to come off as being in any way sexist the truth is that girls of this age are far more advanced then the boys.}

_{Given just a little training they will leave the boys in the dirt.}

 

_{I didn't have any success recruiting younger youth.}

_{Most of our members (We had 27 Sea Scouts.) were aged about 16.}

_{The boys tended to be Scouts who had made Eagle but were interested in remaining in Scouting however what they were getting from their Troop was the same old same old and sad as it might sound some voiced the opinion that they were fed up looking after the little kids!}

_{Most of these Lads were active in the OA and many like my son worked at summer camp -This made planning a Summer event kinda hard.}

_{Of course when it came time for them to leave for college our numbers went down really fast.}

 

_{These youth are really busy.}

_{Trying to find open dates to do weekend trips / activities is hard.}

_{I'm not sure if it was just my group? But very often it seemed that no matter how enthusiastic they seemed for something at the time, if something else came along even at the last minute, the last minute event won out.}

 

_{These kids are broke.}

_{Being a young person today isn't cheap so the lightly hood of them having extra money is very rare and parents have reached their limits.}

_{Trying to help them organize fund raising events is hard because they are so busy or they just fail to turn up on the day.}

_{The boys are no longer cute and no one is going to buy stuff from them!}

_{It can be hard for them to accept new members.}

_{Sure they know it's a good idea but they very quickly form something very much like a family and close ranks.}

_{Many of the local Troops seemed to think that we were in the poaching business -This was never the case.}

 

_{My fears about working with girls were totally unfounded.}

_{I had only ever worked with boys, never had a daughter, but it was sheer joy.}

_{We camped a fair bit and did a couple of weeks Sea Kayaking down in Savannah Georgia, the girls were just as at ease with having no facilities as the boys were.}

_{One of my girls went on to serve as the Aquatics Director at our Council camp while one of my boys served as program director.}

 

_{I was very much for it being their Ship and us doing what they wanted to do.}

_{Some of the things they wanted to do were when they looked into the cost just too expensive.}

_{They talked about Sea Base but it was too much, even going white water rafting close to home was a bit too much.}

_{They enjoyed rappelling (I have all the gear.) Caving was always fun as was all night bowling and traveling down to go out with the Sea Scouts down in Maryland.}

 

_{Working with youth this age is a lot of fun and well worth the effort.}

_{We did close the Ship down once the membership fell below six Sea Scouts we just couldn't make it work at that time.}

_Eamonn    

[BDPT00]

First thing to do is practice saying 'Venturing.'

[Eagledad]

 I'm having a hard time getting that cycle to repeat, but even if it doesn't outlast my time as advisor, it will have been worth it.

And this is likely the result. 7 out of 10 Venture (Venturing)  Crews fail in their first five years because the adults burn out. I've always looked at that statistic as a failure of the program overall. But maybe I need to think outside the box. Maybe disposable scouting is ok and should be supported for what it is. After all that five years might be a life changing experience for many of those scouts. Hmm, I will think on that. 

 

Barry

[walk in the woods]

And this is likely the result. 7 out of 10 Venture (Venturing)  Crews fail in their first five years because the adults burn out. I've always looked at that statistic as a failure of the program overall. But maybe I need to think outside the box. Maybe disposable scouting is ok and should be supported for what it is. After all that five years might be a life changing experience for many of those scouts. Hmm, I will think on that. 

 

Barry

Or maybe we should adopt the LDS model and move scouts into Venturing at 14 instead of having a program/age overlap.  Then again, I like the group model better than the current charter model.

[Eagledad]

Or maybe we should adopt the LDS model and move scouts into Venturing at 14 instead of having a program/age overlap.  Then again, I like the group model better than the current charter model.

No, not for me. The older scouts are the key to a successful troop program. Prepubescent boys learn most of their behavior and skills by watching their older roll models. Taking the older scout roll models out of the program retards the younger scouts maturity and forces a more school room like approach for teaching younger scouts. It's much harder to be boy run because the adults have to step in more often to push the scouts out of the learning ruts. 

 

That being said, most Venturing Crews are started as a result of failed older scout programs in troops. The theory from these adults is that the boys will stay in the program longer for the adventure. The problem with that model is that the adults who failed to build a successful older scout troop program are the same adults who are going to build the Venturing Crew. They don't understand what motivates boys to succeed and they fail just as miserably with the crew as they did with the Troop. I believe that MattR has proven himself with a successful troop program and is capable of building a successful Crew. 

 

Barry

[MattR]

Venturing, venturing, venturing. Done with the first lesson.

 

The troop model of parents being the adult leaders just doesn't seem to work with the local venturing crews I know of. They don't have the energy to help with their kids, or their kids don't want them around. Especially with the 18-21 age. I think it needs the 25 to 30 year olds. Isn't that how the British run their units? Some old codger oversight and some young blood might work.

 

The other issue is the maturity and confidence level of the venturing crew. While I'd like to believe Barry, my older scout program is still a work in progress. Some of the scouts are doers, many are followers. If the venturing crew scouts are good, this could help me. If they're mostly in the "I dunno, what do you want to do" phase, then I don't have the time for it. I'm mildly optimistic because the one scout came up to me and asked for help. I'm not sure if there are more.

 

Something that would be easy to do would be have a planning campout for the old venturing crew and come up with a calendar with names assigned for running it. See if they can generate their own ideas and see if they work well together. If not, well, that tells me something. If they do a good job then take their plan to the old crew advisers and tell them this is what their scouts really want to do. I'd learn about the scouts and the adults. It's possible this problem could solve itself and I'd be done.

Edited September 2, 2015 by MattR

[qwazse]

@@MattR, my one peeve about being a parent and advisor is that everyone in my crew refuses to call me by my 1st name. Same-aged youth in other crews ... no problem! And this is after years of E-mails without "Mr. Q" anywhere in the by-line!

 

One more thing: Venturing Officers' Association. Find out if your council has one. You'll want your lead youth to commit to contributing to it.

[ianwilkins]

Venturing, venturing, venturing. Done with the first lesson.

 

The troop model of parents being the adult leaders just doesn't seem to work with the local venturing crews I know of. They don't have the energy to help with their kids, or their kids don't want them around. Especially with the 18-21 age. I think it needs the 25 to 30 year olds. Isn't that how the British run their units? Some old codger oversight and some young blood might work.

 

The other issue is the maturity and confidence level of the venturing crew. While I'd like to believe Barry, my older scout program is still a work in progress. Some of the scouts are doers, many are followers. If the venturing crew scouts are good, this could help me. If they're mostly in the "I dunno, what do you want to do" phase, then I don't have the time for it. I'm mildly optimistic because the one scout came up to me and asked for help. I'm not sure if there are more.

 

As someone British, running one of the older sections, since you asked, I'll answer....

 

Firstly, the age ranges, scouts is 10-14, explorers 14-18, Network 18-25.

 

I run an explorer unit hands on, and am a manager for the leaders in the other two units in the area, I also know quite a few other explorer leaders. I would say it's a broad church. Some units successfully have the explorers running more or less every weekly meeting. I don't, I can't quite manage it somehow, the time taken to encourage them to be running something, and them to organise it, is time we could be doing something. Wrong and short term of me I know. Also, what do they want to do? What do they think they can do? Stuff they've done before. Then at some point in the future, they complain about things being repetitive.  

 

I also have close contact with the local network, and as their nominated old codger is often busy, he often just acts as a key holder, letting them into the hall, and watching what unfolds that the network have already planned. So they are very much self led.

 

The age of leaders for the Explorer section? Well, in our case, I think all of us are over 40, or very close to it, some over 50. I did have one 20 year old who was at the local university for a couple of years, she was great, and I know other units have a younger leadership team, two of my ex-explorer scouts, and queens scouts, have moved away and are now leaders in other explorer units, one's 26, ones 28.

 

As for parents helping? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, one of the other leaders had all three of his kids through the unit, another unit in our district all three leaders have kids in the unit, while another, none of the leaders have kids in the unit. It clearly wouldn't work if the kid has a poor relationship with parents, or is rebelling, or something teenagery - some will spend the whole evening chatting happily to me, then grunt when mum picks them up and says "have a good evening?", having her helping for the evening would cramp their style somewhat I reckon.

 

Your comment about do-ers and followers is very true, the more do-ers you have, the more self led evenings can be run, though sometimes if you only have one do-er, they will get fed up with always being the one that does stuff, my usual response is "welcome to my world". We've had good times when we've had more do-ers, and other times when everyone seems to be waiting for me to do everything. I need to work out how to turn more followers into do-ers!

 

Ian

[Stosh]

First of all a Venturing Crew is not a co-ed auxiliary of some Boy Scout troop.  It needs to be run independently of the troop mentality.  It's focus is on mature activities, not tying square knots and lashing towers that no one can climb.   It's not going to summer camps and camporees and hanging out with Boy Scouts.

 

One of the biggest failures of many Venturing Crews, in my opinion, is the Boy Scout leaders, trying to keep their older boys active, start a Venturing Crew using Boy Scout methods that had they been applying appropriately in the troop, wouldn't need a Venturing Crew in the first place.  Sharing of leadership personnel, committees, equipment, etc. are all indicators of future failure of the Venturing Crew program in that setting.

 

I was a successful Venturing Crew Advisor for over 12 years and definitely would make a concerted effort to change hats when moving back and forth between the two programs.

 

I would suggest that if the daughter and her friends want to start a Crew and as dad want to help, start with finding adult support for the crew independent from those running the Boy Scout troop.  The Crew has it's own support staff, it's own program, it's own equipment, it's own focus, it's own finances and fundraisers, and if it comes in contact with any Boy Scout troop it is for recruiting purposes only.  Anything short of that one runs the risk of undermining the Venturing Crew's chance of success.

[jr56]

I started a crew once,  it was successful.   We got members from the older boys in the troop, and had a few of their sisters join.

Concentrated on doing more mature themed Venturing events.   Turned out really well.

[MattR]

Sharing of leadership personnel, committees, equipment, etc. are all indicators of future failure of the Venturing Crew program in that setting.

 

The Crew has it's own support staff, it's own program, it's own equipment, it's own focus, it's own finances and fundraisers, and if it comes in contact with any Boy Scout troop it is for recruiting purposes only.  Anything short of that one runs the risk of undermining the Venturing Crew's chance of success.

I believe you. But then what's the difference between a venturing crew and a venture patrol? This is an honest question.

 

In my view they are the same except the venture patrol has responsibility to the rest of the troop. So in my case the venture patrol has 40% of the scouts that want to do stuff with and help out the troop, and the rest are just hoping I don't notice that they aren't doing much of anything. The crew has more leeway on setting goals and has to organize their own events. The crew has more freedom and thus has to be more focused so they don't end up flailing.

[qwazse]

I believe you. But then what's the difference between a venturing crew and a venture patrol? This is an honest question.

 

In my view they are the same except the venture patrol has responsibility to the rest of the troop. So in my case the venture patrol has 40% of the scouts that want to do stuff with and help out the troop, and the rest are just hoping I don't notice that they aren't doing much of anything. The crew has more leeway on setting goals and has to organize their own events. The crew has more freedom and thus has to be more focused so they don't end up flailing.

Well, paperwork is a huge difference. You're not beholden to report your venture patrol to council. Crews have a separate charter, so if your boys want to join one, it's another application (youth until age 18, adult age 18+). Plus, the separate unit pays a rechartering fee every year

 

Also, networking: your venture patrol does not have to touch base with anyone besides the patrols in your troop and they answer only to you. A crew is responsible to provide representatives to the council venturing officers association. Then the council VOA is supposed to recommend youth for Area and Region VOAs, and ultimately the national cabinet. The president of the latter is asked to report on scouting to Congress and POTUS. Needless to say, advisors often pitch in to help transport these dedicated youth. (A similar structure can be seen in O/A.)

 

I think this is especially relevant to the sister who wants to talk to you. You should ask how involved she or anyone in the crew is with the council VOA.

[Stosh]

I believe you. But then what's the difference between a venturing crew and a venture patrol? This is an honest question.

 

In my view they are the same except the venture patrol has responsibility to the rest of the troop. So in my case the venture patrol has 40% of the scouts that want to do stuff with and help out the troop, and the rest are just hoping I don't notice that they aren't doing much of anything. The crew has more leeway on setting goals and has to organize their own events. The crew has more freedom and thus has to be more focused so they don't end up flailing.

 

And this is why the split needs to be completely made.  Otherwise the Venturing Crew becomes nothing more than a Venture Patrol with girls.  And if one is using the Patrol Method, the Venture Patrol should be dictating what it does or doesn't do for the other boys, not some adults making mandates as to why they have to interact with the younger boys.  This is the number one reason why Venture Patrols don't last very long in a troop.  At least with a totally separate Venturing Crew they can go off and do their own thing without adults interfering in their focus.

 

I have done the Venture Patrol idea, but I was an ASM at the time and the SM basically gave it a "try".  Once the Venture Patrol began to meld into a nice unit focusing on more mature activities, the SM stepped in and told them they had to be more involved with the younger boys.  Immediately they all quit and joined a Venturing Crew where the SM couldn't mandate to them.  Had the Troop and Crew a connection, that wouldn't have been far enough apart and the boys would have sought out a non-CO related Crew.  All in all,hey didn't lift a finger to help out the younger boys and all it did was leave a bad taste in their mouth.

 

One doesn't need a Venturing Patrol to turn off the older boys, all it takes is a little adult lead emphasis as the boys are spreading their independence wings and they will fly whether one wants them to or not.