STEM Scouting

[Stosh]

 I still think it's BSA's way of promoting co-ed scouting down to the Cub years while tapping into the urban market.  I see it as too much classroom, but that's the environment that parents feel the kids will be safer in than out in the great outdoors.  For me, I don't see ANY adventure in the process anywhere.  While I liked many of these subjects in school, I still did not go back to any of the classes after school and participate in any of the programs as a form of entertainment or personal satisfaction.

[Gone]

 While I liked many of these subjects in school, I still did not go back to any of the classes after school and participate in any of the programs as a form of entertainment or personal satisfaction.

 

You need to go to a middle school again.

 

I was in one recently during morning announcements. Football? Small claps. Basketball? Nada. Math team wins a tournament? Loud cheers and clapping.

[Stosh]

Why would I want to hang around a middle school?  It wasn't fun the first time, I don't think it's gotten better for me over the years.  My kids didn't like it either.  

[Scouter Matt]

We really don't have to worry about this going very far.

 

Why?

 

Equipment and facilities. Most schools are not going to be interested in turning over their lab facilities for an outside group to use. That equipment is expensive and easy to break. It is also potentially dangerous (even lethal) in untrained hands. From the point of view of the school there is nothing gained by opening the door to STEM Scouts. You are better off forming a science club of your own, which will require zero membership fees and zero additional insurance, and to which you can assign a faculty member as the adviser/coach. No school with any sense is going to let some outsider supervise use of lab equipment, too much risk.

 

If BSA actually wants to push for STEM Scouts through public schools, it inevitably means creating a form of Scouting that drops Duty to God from the Oath and Reverence from the Law along with the related membership requirements. Even still it will not sell because you are charging membership fees for something where the school must still provide all the facilities, equipment, and leadership/supervision. However, you will have compromised the idea that to be a Scout includes acknowledging a personal religious duty, which means that the atheists win the next round of lawsuits against BSA over membership, because BSA will have admitted you can be a perfectly good Scout without doing a duty to God. So, STEM Scouts is the back-door for dropping both of the remaining controversial "G's".

[Gone]

We really don't have to worry about this going very far.

 

Why?

 

Equipment and facilities. Most schools are not going to be interested in turning over their lab facilities for an outside group to use. That equipment is expensive and easy to break. It is also potentially dangerous (even lethal) in untrained hands. From the point of view of the school there is nothing gained by opening the door to STEM Scouts. You are better off forming a science club of your own, which will require zero membership fees and zero additional insurance, and to which you can assign a faculty member as the adviser/coach. No school with any sense is going to let some outsider supervise use of lab equipment, too much risk.

 

11-13 year olds can't use a post hole digger but they can use caustic chemicals in STEM?

[NJCubScouter]

If BSA actually wants to push for STEM Scouts through public schools, it inevitably means creating a form of Scouting that drops Duty to God from the Oath and Reverence from the Law along with the related membership requirements.

And yet my recollection is that STEM Scouts recite the Scout Oath and Law, presumably including the words in question.

 

I also did not think the schools were directly involved, although I could be wrong about that. If they are just using school buildings after school, without the school being a CO, that should be fine. My son's old Cub pack meets in a public school but presumably recites the Scout Oath and Law (which have replaced the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack, I believe) at their meetings.

 

I think this discussion is teetering on the edge of Issues and Politics, but I am not going to move it based on what we have so far. Other moderators may feel free to do so.

[John-in-KC]

I'm with NJ.  Not moving this to I&P ... yet.

[Gone]

All this talk about science and God reminds me of that South Park episode.

[Scouter Matt]

Sorry, not intending to swerve into an Issues and Politics debate, just making an observation.

 

Now, all that being said, since it looks like STEM Scouts is going to be a thing:

 

How best to make such a program work? What elements of the traditional program can be adapted? What needs to be created from scratch? What can be borrowed from other organizations? How is such a program staffed?

 

I suppose those questions are part of what the pilot programs are trying to sort out, but so far there isn't a terrible lot of information since it is still largely an experimental program.

 

Having some experience with implementing another BSA pilot program on an experimental basis, I can tell you there are some real challenges, things like basic books/materials we usually expect not being available. (Example: The application to operate the pilot program says in the fine print it must be operated according to the such and such publication. Then you discover that the publication referenced was distributed as a draft in hard copy, the copies have all been misplaced, and new copies aren't available any more from BSA, and what was published doesn't meet current industry safety standards and so would need to be withdrawn in any case. New updated guidelines are being written, but won't be published until the program becomes a standard rather than a pilot program.)

 

Good luck to the volunteers trying to make this new program work out in the field. They will need it. Hopefully it is good for the youth involved.

 

[Personally, I think something vaguely like STEM Scouts is probably a good idea generally (there is a place for more STEM related activities for youth), but I am not sure if it makes any sense for BSA to be the one doing it (I fear it will produce a sub-optimal program for STEM and will also be a diversion of resources within the organization). The connection between the core distinctive elements of scouting (patrol method, outdoors, oath/law) and STEM is somewhat tenuous. It seems to me to be a large enough field that it really needs its own dedicated movement/organization. The average BSA council/district already has too many different things on its plate to do all of them well, adding in a distinctive STEM program will just be another program not well supported/integrated in the organization (see Varsity Scouts/Venturing/Sea Scouts/Exploring for current examples in most councils).

 

In the corporate world there is a constant battle between those wanting to achieve success through focus and specialization on core business (where an organization should have competitive advantages) and those wishing to diversify by branching out into other areas of business to decrease exposure to risk in the core business.]

Edited August 30, 2015 by Scouter Matt

[Rick_in_CA]

If BSA actually wants to push for STEM Scouts through public schools, it inevitably means creating a form of Scouting that drops Duty to God from the Oath and Reverence from the Law along with the related membership requirements. Even still it will not sell because you are charging membership fees for something where the school must still provide all the facilities, equipment, and leadership/supervision. However, you will have compromised the idea that to be a Scout includes acknowledging a personal religious duty, which means that the atheists win the next round of lawsuits against BSA over membership, because BSA will have admitted you can be a perfectly good Scout without doing a duty to God. So, STEM Scouts is the back-door for dropping both of the remaining controversial "G's".

This is something that the BSA isn't being clear on (I'm just shocked!). My understanding is the STEM Scouts is under the Learning for Life umbrella, and is fully inclusive. Yet they open with the scout oath and law. So I agree this might be a (perhaps unintentional) back-door to dropping the remaining two G's.

 

I don't agree that allowing atheists and agnostics would mean having to drop Duty to God and Reverent from the Scout Oath and Law. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Rick_in_CA

[SeattlePioneer]

<<Good luck to the volunteers trying to make this new program work out in the field.>>

 

 

BSA is built around volunteers organizing and conducting programs.

 

Our council made a real effort to make "Soccer and Scouting" work,  before abandoning it.  But it was mostly conducted by paid staff,  not volunteers.  Not many parents stepped up to provide the leadership and continuity that makes Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts work.

 

<<[Personally, I think something vaguely like STEM Scouts is probably a good idea generally (there is a place for more STEM related activities for youth), but I am not sure if it makes any sense for BSA to be the one doing it (I fear it will produce a sub-optimal program for STEM and will also be a diversion of resources within the organization).>>

 

 

I agree again.   But Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is built around hiking and camping and other activities that many adults have experience with.

 

Science,  if you are serious about it,  involve4s a lot of complex theories built one on top of the other,  and a variety of measuring and other specialized equipment that isn't necessarily readily available and can be expensive.

 

Furthermore,  science, technology ,engineering and math are all very broad topics. Even many technically trained people may have experience in only a corner of one of these.   Similarly,  children may be attracted to an element of one of these areas,  but how likely is it that a local program will offer,  say,  amateur radio,  as part of their program? 

 

I hear that robotics is a popular area for youth investigation these days,  but how much is BSA going to be able to contribute to such a program?

[Scouter Matt]

There is huge diversity in STEM, that is for certain. Even the science inclined tend to have particular fields they like, and others they despise (I abhorred biology).

[vumbi]

Science does not require expensive technologies. Science is a way to understand observable phenomena. It can be done with a pair of binoculars or a magnifying glass or even just a notebook and the ability make careful observations and to write and do calculations. Science requires thought and critical thinking. STEM, in the style of BSA, might just take the appearance of whatever tech company is interested in hawking their wares. If that STEM-mobile I've heard of is any indication of what BSA might promote as STEM then it probably ought to be called sTEM with emphasis on the technology and engineering. Math would merely be the necessary evil that accompanies the 'E'.

I am skeptical about a STEM program that is put together at the will of the likes of people at the Irving office.

[Stosh]

i normally don't discuss Scouting with the Mrs. and she does go along on activities that are of interest to her.  We were sitting out on the back of the house having our morning coffee and I brought the subject of STEM up to see what her reaction would be.  it was: "Really?, you gotta be kidding me.  That sounds like going to school."

 

She wasn't really a fan and she wasn't really interested in knowing more about it.  If you don't wear a PDF, helmet or heavy boots, she isn't interested.  

[John-in-KC]

My opinion:

 

We've lost the real intent Baden-Powell wanted for Scouting:  A game with a purpose.

 

I don't care if the emphasis is historic camping or STEM:  If it can be a game with a purpose, it'll support the youth.  If it's not a game, then it won't capture their desire to participate.