Just thinkin'

[Stosh]

With all the lip service BSA gives to the patrol method, why is it everything is done at the district and council level is done as troops?  Shouldn't the patrols be the one's signing up for camporees, summer camp, etc?  Or is this just real lip service because BP said so?

[Gone]

Good question. I have no answer that does not include my well know vitriol for district.

 

The last few OA meetings our rep attended were run by the adults. Long time guy who lives for those meeting as a soapbox. Misses the point, and his boyhood, entirely. Been that way for ten years now. That as why we focus on the unit not district.

 

So in a phrase I think your answer is: Overbearing adults who get off on power. That's why everything is done as a unit. Power.

[Stosh]

I used to be UC for 2 troops.  The one was progressing very well as boy led, patrol method.  The other was so adult led it was pathetic.  They lost their "do everything" SM and began to flounder.  They had more registered adults than boys.  I offered to take over as SM but they turned me down and the troop folded.  The boys went over to my other troop.... as did the adults.

 

I went to the second troops annual planning meeting.  4 boys and 6 adults showed up and the two older boys showed up late and never really participated.  The other two boys were Webelos crossovers they basically warmed chairs.  The adults actually had a PowerPoint presentation on how to do the planning which an adult "played" with throughout the meeting.

 

Take a troop working diligently on boy led, patrol method scouting and infect it with an adult led group of adults coming over from a collapsed troop, and one has a recipe for disaster.  As UC, I flat out told the SM to watch his back,  Even with the new boys merging together they don't have enough boys to make a single patrol.  

 

What they couldn't figure out is with less than 8 boys, how can one have a patrol method troop?  ....and yes, the first thing on the calendar is the SPL election.

 

Their HA event last summer was cancelled because "one of the boys wouldn't have been able to handle the challenge." whatever that meant.  One thing a good UC can do for troops like this is stand back outside the minutia of the situation and see the big picture of where that troop is headed.  Of course the second step is convincing the adults to get out of the way because the troop is in trouble because of their myopic view of how troops should be run.

 

When I mentioned this situation infecting a second troop the DC knew exactly which adult had run the PowerPoint presentation without even having attended the meeting.  Yes, it's the same person who is the adult "adviser" for the OA Lodge which is floundering as well.

[fred johnson]

The last few OA meetings our rep attended were run by the adults. Long time guy who lives for those meeting as a soapbox. Misses the point, and his boyhood, entirely. Been that way for ten years now. That as why we focus on the unit not district.

 

So in a phrase I think your answer is: Overbearing adults who get off on power. That's why everything is done as a unit. Power.

 

Yeah, I've seen that too.  Probably been guilty at times too or to some degree.  

[Eamonn]

Happy to say that the Lodge I belong to is very much youth led.

Sure we have the older guys who don't seem happy unless they can moan and groan about just about anything and everything.

But no one seem to take any much notice.

 

Working with our R/T Commissioner, we tried t get the Troops and Patrols more involved with the planning of District Events.

We invited all SPL's to the R/T meeting and had them be part of the planning, along with members of the District Camping Committee.

We got a fair turn out of SPL's.

Asking them "What do you want to do?"

Seemed to get us that Deer caught in the headlamps look.

But after some prodding they opened up.

We did manage to get them to work on a District Canoe Camporee.

This wasn't hard as we have no shortage of rivers and the local canoe rental place is very Scout friendly.

Other events became a little more difficult due to location.

Historically we had used our Council primitive camp site for Camporees.

The program seemed to be the same old same old Round Robin of Scout type skills.

With the involvement of the SPL's the only thing that changed was that the PL's were running the stations.

 

Summer Camp is normally left in the hands of the SM.

He knows when his vacation will be and here in our Council many if not most Troops book the same site for the same week next year before they depart this year.

Summer Camp does nothing to help with building the Patrol Method.

By design it is all about advancement and Merit Badges.

Until we somehow someway get away from making Scouts and Scouting all about Eagle Scout Rank, it is never going to change.

I did notice that some Troops are now opting not to dine in the dinning hall.

This is an effort to lessen the cost of summer camp.

Unfortunately nearly all these Troops seemed happy for the adults to do all the cooking.

Which is understandable when all the Scouts are out working on Merit Badges.

Hard as it might be to believe, I thought the National Jamboree did a better job with Patrols then most Council ran Summer Camps do.

I'm sorry but marching to the Dinning Hall in Patrols and being in Patrols for flag ceremonies isn't the Patrol Method.

Eamonn   

[TAHAWK]

BSA does not explain what makes up the Patrol Method in any coherent way.  My source at corporate told me he felt that many of the upper-ups didn't really know what it is supposed to be.  They had, he said, "mislaid" the Patrol Method.    

[qwazse]

@@Eamonn, we never cook for the boys ... Especially at summe camp. There is plenty of time for them to cook for their troop ... Including the adults, two guests per patrol. Plenty of time left over for merit badges and camp-wide shenanigans.

 

@@TAHAWK, I never learned about patrol method from professionals. It's volunteers who articulated it best for me. As a youth, I'm pretty sure my SPLs did more to explain it to us. Of course Green Bar Bill's articles provided ideas for practical implementation.

 

Son#2's new roommate is also an Eagle Scout, and they've obviously been comparing notes. Son#2 told me he was a little envious the other troop's more successful implementation of the method.

[blw2]

@@Eamonn, we never cook for the boys ... Especially at summe camp. There is plenty of time for them to cook for their troop ... Including the adults, two guests per patrol. Plenty of time left over for merit badges and camp-wide shenanigans......

 this is a sidetrack comment to the thread's original topic

but is this idea of the boys cooking for the adults a tradition of some sort?  I don't recall it from my youth, and haven't read that many troops do it....

But My CO's troop did this sort of thing for my son and I when we visited them for the WEBELOS AKELA weekend campout the last couple years.

After the experience last year, I vowed to never play that game again.  Thanks, but no.

It's not that the food was all that bad..... it was basic and not very great, but it was eatable..... and they might have been sanitary enough.... it mostly just seemed weird to me....

If I camp with the troop in any capacity and this is the plan for the adults to eat the boys' food based on the boys' menu.... I'm bringing a steak, maybe some fish, some vegetables, rice, etc....or maybe some freeze dried backpacking food depending on circumstances... and my own camp stove.  Come meal time you'll find me sneaking away from the group to enjoy my meal.... in the adult area.... but I'll probably stay in sight and smeller range, so the boys can see how it's done!

[blw2]

With all the lip service BSA gives to the patrol method, why is it everything is done at the district and council level is done as troops?  Shouldn't the patrols be the one's signing up for camporees, summer camp, etc?  Or is this just real lip service because BP said so?

very interesting point Stosh.  I look forward to following this one....

[qwazse]

 this is a sidetrack comment to the thread's original topic

but is this idea of the boys cooking for the adults a tradition of some sort?  I don't recall it from my youth, ..

It's not that the food was all that bad..... it was basic and not very great, but it was eatable..... and they might have been sanitary enough.... it mostly just seemed weird to me....

.... I'm bringing a steak, maybe some fish, some vegetables, rice, etc....or maybe some freeze dried backpacking food depending on circumstances... and my own camp stove.  ... but I'll probably stay in sight and smeller range, so the boys can see how it's done!

Well, there were precious few adults in the vicinity when I was a scout, so it was never a possibility. (I cant remember the SM and ASM joining us for meals. The would have had to, but I don't recall it.)

 

Currently this is a troop tradition. Or, more accurately a solution to the problem of active adults in  a campsite that is much smaller than the desired 600 yard postage stamp.

 

It consumes space and ads clutter creating one more cooking station for a bunch of guys (and the occasional lady) who would do just as well with a pot for tea and coffee. Otherwise, old fart's patrols can get out of hand. For example, when I run shop, the menu includes shrimp scampi (properly done with clarified butter, dill and chili powder) and fettuchini alfredo beside fresh greens with vinegar and olive oil ... maybe tiramisu for desert. You can see how menus like that 5 days straight could could turn a boys' camp into a big-boy playground.

 

Instead, we keep ourselves company at a picnic table some modest distance away from the hubub of cooking and wait for the PL to whom we were assigned to send a runner letting us know the meal is ready.

 

We do have weekend camps where adults can "show how it's done" ... summer camp just isn't one of them.

[TAHAWK]

 

 

@TAHAWK, I never learned about patrol method from professionals. It's volunteers who articulated it best for me. As a youth, I'm pretty sure my SPLs did more to explain it to us. Of course Green Bar Bill's articles provided ideas for practical implementation.

 

I too learned from volunteers, including leaders (Scouts), but what they were teaching was in the 1950 Handbook for Patrol Leaders.  One of the few "professionals" that I acknowledge wrote that book, so we were all learning from one of the few Scouting professionals who was drawing a salary.  

 

(Strangely, Bill does not make it into the lineup for the Scouting Heritage Merit Badge, and  BP is also absent.  Waite Phillips was more important to the growth of Scouting in the U.S. than BP or Bill?  There were 99 troops in Cleveland when BSA arrived, and each one was formed on the sole basis of Scouting for Boys.) 

[Eamonn]

One thing that is for sure about the Methods of Scouting is that just when you think that you have got it!

Something will change and your going to have to start over.

 

Sometimes this is because the boys in the Troop change.

Sometimes new adults come along

Sometimes you see that your understanding of what they really are all about changes.

If things aren't changing? There is a very good chance that the Troop is in fact dying.

 

As a Scout back in London, I never knew anything different then what is now called the Patrol Method.

We cooked and ate as Patrols.

We slept in six-man tents.

In many Troops there was a good chance that once you moved from the Pack into the Troop and joined a Patrol, that would be your Patrol for as long as you were a Scout.

The Patrols were made up of Lads of different ages, the older Lads were expected to look after and take care of the younger Lads.

The older Scouts had the experience and the know how to do this.

Looking back, I'm sure that this wasn't done out of love for these young Tenderfoots! It had more to do with Patrol pride and being better then the other Patrols.

 

Back in 1977 after spending the summer working at a BSA Summer Camp.

The BSA laid on a tour of the east coast.

The Mayor of Philadelphia met with us and presented us with chips of wood from a beam of wood from the original Hall of Independence.

I was interviewed by someone from the press.

I made the big mistake of saying that I thought that American Boy Scouts were a "Bunch of Softies"!

They arrived at camp where all the tents were set up (Didn't I know it. Every weekend I'd been part of the team that moved tents from one site to another)

They ate in a Dining Hall, where all their meals were prepared for them.

This story somehow hit the wire and I received letter from all over the world saying that I was wrong.

I also wasn't a big hit with the guys who worked in the International Department of The Scout Association.

 

While I no longer believe that our kids are in any way soft.

I do tend to think that if an American Scout wants to become an Eagle Scout he can find an easy path.

I am a Queens Scout and I'm very proud of it.

As a little fellow, other then the memory of having to clean the outside of aluminum pots and frying pans used to cook over wood fires.

I know that I had fun. Lots of fun.

Many of the things I enjoyed as a little fellow I still enjoy now.

 

It has been a very long time since I read Scouting for Boys.

I do seem to remember that the Lads who went to Brownsea Island didn't cook or eat in Patrols.

Eamonn.  

[Sentinel947]

 

Son#2's new roommate is also an Eagle Scout, and they've obviously been comparing notes. Son#2 told me he was a little envious the other troop's more successful implementation of the method.

I had a similar realization when I met other Eagles in college.