Strong personalities in conflict

[Eaglewith3]

I am an Eagle Scout with a strong background in scouting (camp staff, ASM with my original troop after aging out, Den leader for 4 years, just accepted a position at the district level). When my twins were born I approached the local troop as a volunteer and recieved a very lukewarm response. So I decided to wait until the boys were old enough to become cubs and come up with them. This year they crossed over and went to summer camp and a local merit badge conclave put on by local troops at an old defunct scout camp in the erea. They have spent a lot of time with this troop this summer. It has become obvious to me that my presence is neither encouraged or appreciated. The STRONG personalities in this troop are making it very hard to continue to stay active. The only other troop in the community meets on the same night as my youngest sons cub pack. I have been looking forward to sharing the scout experience with my sons ever since they were born. I have read a little about the lone scout program but that seems very extreme. Just not sure what to do.

[Stosh]

@@Eaglewith3 First of all, welcome to the forum!  I'm sure you're going to hear both sides of the story from the people here.  We don't always agree on everything, but we still get along pretty well.

 

Whereas I can totally see where you would want to share the experience of scouting with your son, there comes a time when he's going to need to break away and start a tradition of his own with his sons some day, too.  With that in mind focus on the intent of the BSA program.

 

In Cubs, it is quite family oriented.  The moms and dads check off the activities with their son who works both at home and in the den on scouting activities.  Camping is a shared experience with parent/scout and this is great.

 

But during the Webelos years, there's a slight shift in focus and the boy is now moving into the age where buddies start playing an ever increasing role in his life.  There's still the parent/son connection but it is becoming more relaxed.

 

Now he crosses over into Boy Scouts and things appear to be much different...because they are.  He is becoming independent of the family.  He is seeking more from his peers and much to the parents' chagrin, he is moving on in life.  This is all natural and Scouting, when done correctly is to help him develop his character in a positive and constructive way as he moves towards maturity.

 

But it is at this point that mom and dad need to make a decision.  Are you going to let go or hang on?    I have children who have children, and I've seen this cycle spin in hundreds of scouters lives over the years.  It's not all that easy.

 

Yes, you can be interested in those things that interest him, and yes, you can still go hunting, fishing and doing all the guy things you do with a son.  But he needs his space to learn how to work outside the home, build relationships, get along with others, work as a team within a group and all sorts of things that aren't taught in school and don't come out of a book.

 

I find a lot of parents want to be friends with their kids.  My younger brother was that way with his kids and his eldest is 28 years old and still living at home.  They're best friends, but now my nephew has developed no other friends in the meantime.

 

So, now it's your turn to decide.  Just because you aren't associated with the troop doesn't mean you can't sit around a campfire after a day of fishing with your son and regale each other with Scout stories.  It maintains your bond with him, focused exclusively one-on-one and yet allows him the opportunity to seek out other relationships with his peers.  You'll still be there for the COH's and the occasional outing where you might drive the boys, and that's great.  

 

My parents weren't involved with any of the activities I was involved with in school.  We had our family vacations and we camped as a family all the time.  I had my buddies from school, from scouts, from church, etc. and I had my family.  Each experience was different, and my parents realized one thing during those years.  Yes, I rebelled and went my own way in life, but after a few years of that, it was time to settle down and reconnect with my past.  The only relationship that survived was family, as it should be.  

 

Don't try and over-think this process.  If your son really likes the troop and the troop doesn't really want you around, don't worry about it.  You can still go camping with him once a month and fish, hunt, and hike all the same places he's been and where you've been in the past.  That is your connection, not scouts.  BSA has a lot of rules and policies that really stifle the "guy thing".  My eldest (tom boy) daughter always seeks parental advice from me even though she's married and has children of her own.  The last conversation we had was what is the best shotgun option when it comes to home defense and could she borrow my 9mm to see if it's the kind of gun she wants to carry.  Oh, by the way, last weekend we went camping, just her and my granddaughter and the conversation was held sitting around the campfire.  She is a Silver Award Girl Scout and I never once attended a Girl Scout activity she was involved with.

 

I hope my ramblings help you sort things out.

[qwazse]

I guess the question boils down to is this troop good for your boys? If so, and if these SMs are doing things by the book, let your boys enjoy the troop and just drop and go until someone asks for more help.

If the other troop is better, drop the boys there on the way to pack meetings. Offer to help as needed on weekends and evenings that aren't pack nights.

 

Either way, have fun with your youngest. Serve cheerfully at the district level. As an ASM and Crew Advisor, I've found it hard to do much more than that. This troop may have given you some unique opportunities by freeing up your time.

[Hedgehog]

It has become obvious to me that my presence is neither encouraged or appreciated. The STRONG personalities in this troop are making it very hard to continue to stay active. 

 

This to me is a big red flag.  I can't imagine turning away any Eagle Scout parent who wants to help.  Heck, our Troop woud take Girl Scout parents, former Cub Scout parents or even just a scout's parent.  Maybe that is because our Troop's leadership changes as boys age out with new parents taking up roles as the parents of scouts aging out become less involved.  If a new scout's parent hangs around for more than one meeting, we give them an application.

 

The idea of making a parent feel unwelcome and the idea of "strong personalities" just seems to me to be a sign of a troop being adult-led.  Those folks always seem to me to be the ones who run the program their way and want to be in charge -- the SMs who retest at Board of Review, the SMs who tell the boys what merit badges they can and can't do at camp, the SMs that assign leadership positions, the SMs who lead the patrols supplanting the PLs.

 

The question here is how is the Troop run --  is it boy-led or SM led?  If it isn't boy-led, find a Troop that is.

 

@@Stosh - Don't assume that all parents who want to become involved are there to be their son's best friend.  Some of us parents enjoy the outdoors and whant to share that experience with the boys in the troop.  Although I love going on scouting adventures with my son, he knows that I'm there to serve all the boys in the Troop and not just to hang out with or take care of him.  I actually spend more of my time coaching and mentoring the Troop's leadership and the new scouts than I do with my son.  The times I do interact with my son as his dad, I'm coaching and encouraging him -- not trying to be his best friend.  

Edited August 16, 2015 by Hedgehog

[Eamonn]

As a little fellow I had a great time in Scouting.

My parents were not in any way involved in the Troop.

While willing to pay for what I wanted to do and turn up when asked. -That was about it.

This meant that I was free!

I really enjoyed and relished in this freedom.

 

When we moved to the USA, some friends got me to sign up to serve on a Council Committee that rarely met and didn't do much.

I was OK with that, willing to support the Council.

Time past, we had a son.

I was very busy. He joined Cub Scouts.

Somehow I ended up as Cubmaster.

When the time came for him to join Boy Scouts, he made it very clear that he didn't want me around.

Have to admit to being a little hurt.

But I remembered how much I enjoyed not being under the watchful eyes of my parents.

 

We had a new Troop that was just starting in our church but he opted to join another Troop.

I knew the SM well, I liked and respected him.

So off he went without me.

 

I got involved at both the District and Council side of Scouting.

After a couple of years the SM of his Troop had to quit because of work.

His replacement wasn't the greatest and it wasn't long till my son was looking for another Troop.

He found one.

By then I was the District Commissioner.

His new SM seemed to want me to get involved. But I really just didn't have the time.

 

My son remained in Scouting till he aged out.

I think that he "Out grew." Troop Scouting when he was about 15 or 16, but by then he was deeply involved with the OA and the Lodge.

We did go to the 2001 Jamboree me as SM and him a member of the Troop, by 2005 he wanted to go as a Junior Staff member.

He did earn his Eagle Scout Rank.

While maybe it is wrong for me to speak for him? Still, I think that he a great time as a Scout. Time spent working as a summer camp staffer and away from home was good for him.

Sure I missed out on what he was doing and only now years later am I hearing about some of the stuff him and his mates got into.

I also had a great time, I worked as Council Training Chair. I staffed Wood Badge, served on the Area Committee and worked closely with some wonderful and interesting volunteers.

We give our kids a lot but it is important that we give them "Roots and Wings."

Eamonn

[Stosh]

 

@@Stosh - Don't assume that all parents who want to become involved are there to be their son's best friend.  Some of us parents enjoy the outdoors and whant to share that experience with the boys in the troop.  Although I love going on scouting adventures with my son, he knows that I'm there to serve all the boys in the Troop and not just to hang out with or take care of him.  I actually spend more of my time coaching and mentoring the Troop's leadership and the new scouts than I do with my son.  The times I do interact with my son as his dad, I'm coaching and encouraging him -- not trying to be his best friend.  

 

That's not the assumption I made.  @@Eaglewith3 was concerned about his inability to participate and how that affects his relationship with his son.  The point I was trying to make was the two are mutually exclusive and he can have a great scout-like experience with his son outside of the troop activities as well.  Yes the bond between father and son is good, but it should be father and son, not best buddies and the parents that recognize this are more apt to encourage and make opportunities for their kids to expand their social networks at this age so as to broaden their horizons and not "fence them in"  on just family dynamics.

 

Your comments about this possibly being an adult-led program is the conclusion I also came up with.  So the scout needs to decide whether or not he wants that troop or is he able to shop around a bit.  If it's the only game in town, then son and dad need to work out how that's going to be between the two of them.

 

Eagle scout dad can offer him all the personal assistance and development as a "lone scout" kind of approach and by going off with the troop to be with his friends to have fun is the part the troop would provide.  Nothing wrong with an Eagle scout dad mentoring his son on the side.  Dad teaches the knot, son goes to SM and demonstrates it to him.  Dad teaches first aid, son goes to SM and demonstrates to him, etc.  When the troop realizes this boy is well trained and knows his stuff without being taught by the troop, they might ask who's priming the pump and that could open an opportunity for dad's participation as well.

 

A lot of dynamics going on here and son and dad have a lot of choices to make but they can and hopefully will make those choices together.

[resqman]

Most adult leaders in Scouting have at least one son in the program.  Those adults are often leaders to fill two goals, time with their son AND to help other scouts. 

 

I have fond memories of my time in scouting as a lad.  I wanted my sons to have similar experiences.  I volunteered partly so I could help provide a program I thought would be fun and challenging and partly to be around my sons.  Oh and because it was fun for me.

 

Just because a parent wants to volunteer to be a leader does not mean they are helicopter parents managing their every child's movement.  Sometimes it means the parent sees a need where they can add value.  If a troop is reluctant to accept new leadership, that is a potential sign to choose a different troop.  Obviously due diligence must be done to determine on what basis they are rejecting new volunteers.

 

In my nephew's troop, they often have as many as 20+ adults with only 30 odd scouts on a campout.  I believe they have too many volunteers and are not properly restricting access by parents/adults.

[Gone]

It has been by experience that troops that are this unwelcoming of other adults are usually VERY adult-run, not boy-run. If that's the case, find another unit.

 

If that's not the case, sit down with the TC chair and the SM and ask what you can do to help. If they are still cold but the boys are getting what they should out of the program then that will be a tough call.

[vumbi]

I agree with Hedgehog that it would be suspicious of being 'adult-led'. But that is merely a suspicion and I'd try to follow up on this to make sure before moving on. Or it could be that they already have so many volunteer Eagles that they just can't fit any more in. No? ...I guess probably not.

[CA Scout Mom]

I guess your son's troop has plenty of members and plenty of adult leaders?  I wish that was the case with my son's troop!  My husband is the new Scoutmaster and he would love to have more parental participation even though his focus is on having a boy-led troop.  He's working on getting more parent participation with the method he used when he was Committee Chair of the Cub  Scout pack which was ultimately successful.  (See my long post on Parental Participation post!)  I find it highly suspicious that any troop wouldn't appreciate more help so that's a red flag right there.  And, you might want to consider whether these strong personalities might be leaving soon if their boys are older.  So, can you wait it out, in other words?  But, either way, I encourage you to find a way participate to help keep the bonds with your son and the troop strong and healthy.  And, it needn't be on the SM/ASM side but on the Committee side depending on where these strong personalities tend to gravitate.  

[blw2]

I find that there are a lot of egos in scouting, at least in my limited experience.  Especially in leaders that have been around a while, leaders that were eagles, etc....

they have very specific opinions some times, even to the point of "know the only right way".

 

Maybe that's what you're up against

or maybe they feel they have too many leaders already

or maybe its something else....

[gumbymaster]

This topic seems to have a lot of really good points on both sides.

 

It seems reasonable to ask WHY they don't want you around.  It could be that they want to avoid conflicts in the future that may arise if they fear you, with your experience, might not want to do things their way.  It may also be, that they too, are looking out for your Sons' interests.

 

It is not uncommon for a Troop to invite a bridging parent to take a year or two off, before becoming an active leader in the unit.  They don't know you, but maybe expereince has taught them that giving this separation helps the troop remain boy led rather than an extension of adult led cub scouts.  Thus, the issue may not be you at all.

 

If the Troop is running a safe, quality program and the boys are enjoying it, learning from it, and leading it, it might be best for you to swallow your plans, and let it develop.

 

I had a similar decision to make when my Son bridged.  While I am now active in the Troop committee, I generally don't camp with them, and I am not a uniformed leader at their meetings.  For my continued Scouting experience, I became an MBC, decided to get involved a little more at the district level - working as an assistant roundtable commissioner, and for this year, at least, I decided to stay with the Pack.

 

My parents were not involved in my Scouting other than as parents who did their share of transportation, and who enabled me to have the expierence I wanted.  I grew a lot in my independence this way, and I hope my son can have a similar expierence.

 

At this time, I only plan to step into a significant leadership role with the Troop if that is the only option that will keep the unit operating.

 

I miss the extra bonding time with my son, but overall I think he will benefit more from this experience.

[pargolf44067]

I have to say as Scoutmaster, I would give my right arm to have an Eagle Scout dad volunteer in my troop!  So that makes me wonder about the troop as well.  There are strong personalities in many groups and sometimes those strong personalities can hinder the development of that group, but sometimes those personalities can work together to provide great developmental opportunities.

 

The important thing is your sons.  If they are having a great time and they see that it is boy led, then give the troop a chance and do some of the things that Stosh said to help slowly build the relationship with the troop leadership.  I can understand your frustration though, because I wouldn't give up the past 13 years of scouting that I was involved with my boys, just the events we shared and the memories we made. 

[SSF]

I'm also an Eagle and I can relate to what you're going through. From the time my kids were born, it had always been my plan to be involved as an active leader within their troop. When my older son and I were looking at prospective troops my one caveat for joining was that i would be able to become a leader and go on camping trips.

 

I didn't come across any troops that essentially said "sorry, not interested in having you as a leader," but if they had, I would have thanked them for their time and crossed them off our list as a potential troop. I understand though that your options, in terms of other troops in your area, may be limited.

 

You said that the "strong personalities" were making it very hard for you to stay active. Would you be open to expanding on that a bit? What specifically are they doing to make you feel unwelcome?

 

All in all, if this is the troop that your sons want to be part of then I would try to make things work with the other leaders. Granted that's much easier said than done.

[PA Scoutmaster]

I am usually thrilled to have an Eagle that wants to volunteer in a leadership position. It can be very difficult to find good leaders. That being said, I do recommend that a Dad takes some time off and lets his son acclimate to the troop and become comfortable. Perhaps this is what the leaders here are doing? If so, they need to communicate that better, rather than giving the cold shoulder. The other question I would have is how did the dad approach the Scoutmaster? Sometimes potential leaders can come in and want to take charge. I find that Eagles do this more often than others. "This is how they did it in my troop, this is how it should be done" I don't mean that the original poster did this, I just mean that I have seen that in my experience. That's another reason that taking a year or so while the son gets comfortable in the troop can be a good thing. It also gives the the adult leadership some time to get to know the potential new leader before committing to having him come aboard.