Questions For Webelos Troop Visits

[Gone]

@@blw2, I think @@Eagledad points are well taken. Kids that go for the fun or food or friends usually end up out of scouting after one year. The depth of the program, training, leadership and variety of program are what matters. Kids of 10-11 won't recognize that. They'll be all about the fun. The key is to see through the cracks and find out how the unit runs normally.

 

I always tell every parent, if they don't like a unit they can always leave. You won't hurt my feelings. Sometimes you get in to something that you find out later wasn't for you. Great. The goal should be for the kids to learn and grow and have fun.

[blw2]

I've told this story before, but at the Blue and Gold Banquet of my first year as a Cub Master, I was chatting with the Webelos who were crossing over into a troop that night and I asked them why they chose that troop. They said because they had the best game at the troop meetings. 80% of those boys dropped out of scouting by the end of that year.

 

I'm not a big fan of coaching scouts to ask a lot of questions at troop visits because boys this age like to feel the experience, not analyze it with an accumulation of facts. Oh, they should ask a couple questions that give them an idea of what to expect like: “what is the most fun thing you do in this troop and what are the best camp outs?â€.  AND, “what is the worst part of the troop?â€. Webelos don’t really understand boy run or merit badge mills or whatever, but they are experts in fun. Encourage them to get a feel if the troop is fun and why.

 

I've gotta say that's good simple guidance for the boys!

 

But searching for a troop should be a team effort with the adults and the boys working together. Most scouts who picked a troop without the help of adults quit in their first year. So the adults need to ask the structural questions that fill in the details of the cogs, pulleys and gears that move the troop from point A to point B. But you don’t have shoot a borage of questions at the SM like a machine gun. Some questions just don’t need to be asked. For example does any troop leader think their troop is not boy run or that they are a merit badge mill? We can’t even agree on boy run programs on this forum, so is it realistic for a parent to understand what they are asking or learn much by the answers?

 

While I think you bring a great perspective to the question, It is something i think that needs to be ferreted out.  You're probably right, no scoutmaster is gonna give you an answer that's not great.... but this is I think beyond the boy fun and friends, one of the most important aspects of scouting.  I'm not so excited if my son doesn't get to grow from the experience of the boy led patrol method....

 

Instead ask what I think is on the mind of most parents "how will you get my son his eagle?". I know it’s on their minds because that was asked of me by every group that ever visited us, and it was the hardest question for me to answer.

 

Not my goal at all....

 

But, you can learn a lot about the troop by that one question like, Do they do advancement in the troop program or wait until summer camp? Do they have a set agenda for each scout reaching rank or is the scout guided to plan his own agenda? And usually the answers will lead to other pertinent questions.

 

See, i want to know if that advancement is driven by the adults are the boys....

 

Another good question is: "Give us an example of how a camp out is planned from its creation to loading the cars on Friday night?". The answer to that question will tell you how much the adults and boys involved in the planning and running of the troop from annual planning down to the PLC meeting. And the answer will lead you to ask other key questions like: who plans the meals, when? Who buys the meals? Who cooks the meals? The answers to all those questions will give you a feel for roles of the adults and scouts in the program.  

 

Great!  This one conversation would likely ferret out most answers!

 

“What do you expect from the parents?â€. That should provide answers to training, committee, who camps, who drives, who leads and so on.

 

And there is one question that is rarely mentioned but I find is really important, “How long is the present leadership expected to stay with the troop?â€. Fact is most programs have some noticeable changes after the adult leadership changes and I have seen sooooo many program loose half their membership in the first year as a result. If the SM plans to leave in the next few months, you want to know.

 

Great point, and you also wnat to know if they have been doing it a really long time and with no end in site!  

in which case look for signs of burn out.....

or you might then look for a unit really set hard in its ways that won't welcome a new guy or new ideas.....

 

By the same token, I notice stosh presented his resume to the OP but he didn’t say how big his troop is. 10 scouts joining a troop of 100 is no big deal. 10 scouts joining a troop of six is no longer the troop that the Webelos visited. A troop that increases by 50% is basically starting all over. So you can learn a lot about the maturity and organizing of the troop by asking them how many new scouts they are expecting and what is their plan for dealing with the increase numbers?â€.

 

Oh, the big question in this discussion, should you call a head? Many troops change their program for visitors, so I like unannounced visits, but I do give them one days’ notice. One day allows the SPL to be ready without giving enough time to change the program agenda. Truth of the matter is the scouts usually do OK with unannounced visits, it’s the adults that get flustered. I once watched an ASM go into a tirade with the SPL because of the stress of 16 Webelos and their parents watching their program.

 

Campouts visits are really good too, in fact I think they are better. Learn the schedule of a troop and pick a campout you would like to visit to see the troop in action. You don’t have to spend the night, just a few hours on Saturday will help a lot. Maybe even stay for dinner. And I wouldn’t give them more than a weeks’ notice because that would give them enough time to change the agenda. Many troops have a specific weekend scheduled every year for Webelos visits and it is usually pretty good program. But you want to see a typical campout, not one that is designed to entertain Webelos. As I said, it is usually the adults that over react to the surprise visits, so the smart SM lets the PLC handle it. I did and they never disappointed me.

 

I've attended a troop camp already with my son his Bear and 1st year WEBELOS years (council changed up their WEBELOS/Akela Weekend program) but this was all planned and prepped.  My son had a great time, but I never felt we really saw ho boy lead they are and got a great feel for their patrol method structure.

Am I correct that your proposal with 1 week warning is for a lone scout, and not the den?

 

Good luck and have fun with it.

 

Barry

[blw2]

This is great everyone!  thank you all very much to those that have chimed in so far.

 

I'm getting quite a list of ideas to chase, that are going to require a fair bit of work from me to boil down into some simple guidance!

 

Thank you all so far!!!

[Eagledad]

 

While I think you bring a great perspective to the question, It is something i think that needs to be ferreted out.  You're probably right, no scoutmaster is gonna give you an answer that's not great.... but this is I think beyond the boy fun and friends, one of the most important aspects of scouting.  I'm not so excited if my son doesn't get to grow from the experience of the boy led patrol method....

 

Well my point is to ask how the troop does its activities so that you can figure out how boy run it really is. 

 

Instead ask what I think is on the mind of most parents "how will you get my son his eagle?". I know it’s on their minds because that was asked of me by every group that ever visited us, and it was the hardest question for me to answer.

 

Not my goal at all....

 

Again, its not about earning Eagle, its about how the troop does advancement and the philosophy behind it. Trust me, it s a tough question. You will find out quickly if this is an Eagle mill or character goal troop and how much independence the boys have in the program.

 

 

 

I've attended a troop camp already with my son his Bear and 1st year WEBELOS years (council changed up their WEBELOS/Akela Weekend program) but this was all planned and prepped.  My son had a great time, but I never felt we really saw ho boy lead they are and got a great feel for their patrol method structure.

Am I correct that your proposal with 1 week warning is for a lone scout, and not the den?

 

It can be a den or lone scout. If you only pop in for a few hours, the troop shouldn't feel obligated to make changes to their program, which is what you really want to see. 

 

Barry

 

 

 

[meschen]

Unexpected/short noticed visits are a great idea. Both troops my son visited had about 3-4 days notice. Best feel is a camp out with them. That is when your son can really see them in action, and your son can see if the troop is for him or not.

 

Unexpected visits are a bad idea. I've had a cople bad expeirences with this from the Troop side over the last few years.

 

A few of years ago I had a parent who wanted to visit. I told him, come by any Thursday, just don't come the third Thursday of that month - we have elections planned that night. Sure enough, he show's up anyway.  At this point, rescheduling wasn't happening - too hard to get the OA rep to show up as it is. Mr. Webelos' eyes were rolling in the back of his head 15 minutes in. When it come time to vote, the OA Rep told Mr. Webelos he wasn't allowed to cast a ballot (can't fault him for that) I never saw Mr. Webelos again.

 

Also had someone else show up last year without checking before hand and it turned out to be a week our meeting location was unavailable (it happens), so we had moved the meeting. Mr. Parent wasn't too happy with me. Thanks buddy.

[fred johnson]

Unexpected visits are a bad idea. I've had a cople bad expeirences with this from the Troop side over the last few years.

 

Agreed.  I've had a few similar experiences over the last ten years and our scouts are as prepared as any to handle impromptu visitors.  

 

Unfortunately, all nights are not created equally.  Some troop meetings are by the book agenda.  Others are structured differently and just won't create an exciting impression.

 

Plus, we have never had visitors who are content with standing in the back.  More reasonably, we've had adult visitors in "shopping" with questions and some that are even looking for what type of deal they can negotiate.  Essentially, the adult leaders want attention and to see how much you will value them.  The Webelos themselves usually want to interact with the scouts.  Little interaction with the scouts or the adults usually means poor impression.  

 

We've had some visitors on nights where the troop has a full schedule that needs to get done.  Meal planning.  Duty assignments.  Boards of review.  Elections.  Final check-outs before big trips or big events.  

 

We've had visitors appear on nights when many scouts are gone for one reason or another.   It happens.

 

There is no ideal troop and no perfect visitor.  Expecting such is only asking for trouble.

[MattR]

If you really want to find out what a troop is about ask if you can go camping with them. Afterwards  you can talk to your son about whether the adults were doing things or the boys were doing things. You'll learn a lot more there than at a meeting.

 

Likely questions a 10 year old is really going to ask: Are the scouts including me? Am I having fun? Do I get along with the scouts and adults?

 

For the parents, the same questions are important. Are the adults including me? Do I get along with them? Have they invited me to go camping with them?

 

As much as everyone wants to know if it's boy led or not, it's not really a yes/no answer. It's usually how much. If you want a crude answer than just watch, there's no point in asking.

 

I'd suggest asking ahead of time about a visit. We don't always meet at the same place or time. When parents ask me when is a good time to visit I tell them what the boys have planned for the next few weeks and let them decide.

[Hedgehog]

@@Hedgehog I think there's stuff kids want to know and stuff parents want to know. Sometimes we get lost in the boy-led discussion and forget that the Webelos haven't had that yet and parents (akela) are still very much the leaders.

 

When we were looking we spent a few meetings with the boys putting together their list of questions. Parents did the same. The boys asked the questions of the other boys while the parents got their questions answered by the SM.

 

There are considerations requiring adult review in the troop selecting process.

 

My concerns about the list of questions is: 1) that they are directed to the SM not the SPL; 2) most of those questions can be answered by observing a meeting;  3) some of them are answered by our SPLs presentation to the adults; and 4) they did not include the most important question - "do you guys have fun?"   

 

 

 

I think it's important to remember that these boys, if they don't have an older brother in, they don't know what patrol method is (for example).... or boy lead.  They might have heard of it, but the don't really know.... so they don't know to look for it, they don't know what to ask.  They might not even understand why it's important to look for it, even after it's explained or demonstrated!  

 

 

Pretty much every Webelo who visits our Troop understands what boy-led means by the time they leave the meeting.  The boys start the meeting, run the Troop meeting, run the patrol breakouts, run the Troop activity and run the closing.  Adults only speak when asked by a boy leader.  The boys always talk it up because they really value the fact that we are boy-led.  The only role they see adults in is standing on the sidelines, occasionally chatting with one of the boy leaders during a break -- sort of like a coach talks to a quarterback before they go into the game.  The adults get a presentation from the SPL and ASPL.  It is clear that they are in charge.  

 

My last thought is that asking questions up front isn't a good idea.  Listen.  You will hear what the troop thinks is important.  For our troop, what is important is boy-led, the outdoor program and having fun at the meetings while learning skills.  When you ask questions, you are focusing on what you think is important and that my influence the response.

 

Maybe my views on recruiting are different.  We have almost 60 scouts and our concern is that we get too many boys.  The other thing is that folks in the community know how our Troop runs -- from older brothers, guys that crossed over from the pack, parents who talk up the troop, etc.  

[5yearscouter]

Directing adult questions at the spl makes no sense.  He's involved in program.

Parents usually want the answers to the questions on the committee side of things. cost, fundraising, equipment, committee needs, etc.

 

That's a bad joke. But there is some truth in it. 

 

Most SPLS are better at scouting skills and rbusy unning their meetings training up good scouts [program] than they are at coddling webelos parents who have a million questions.  the SPL covers some stuff in a talk to the visiting webelos and their parents and then he wants the webelos to go try out what scouting in his troop is like.  The parents want to hover and watch and interfere.

 

So then it's appropriate to hand the parents off to someone else, Scoutmaster or an adult membership/recruiting chair who gets the adults out of the boy's meeting. 

 

Part of the point of my list is to think of some things the troops should be prepared to answer(whether spl or adults) or cover automatically without being asked.  The parents have soooo many questions about this transition process to boy scouting, and when first starting to look for a troop with my oldest it seemed so overwhelming to head into that and try to understand what boy scouts was all about.. 

 

So SPL talks mostly to the visiting scouts with parents hanging out.

The SM does a sm conference with visiting webelos and may do a quick talk to the parents too..

 

As membership chair I or another parent mentor will then touch base and try to get the parents to step back away from their sons to let them enjoy the meeting.  We touch base to find out which questions they still have.  

 

Lots of webelos leaders will only take their den to visit the one troop they've already decided that their son is joining.  So I may ask what troops they've visited and encourage them to visit the 4 others troops within easy driving distance.  We don't want anyone to join our troop because it was the default or they never got around to visiting another troop. If they have already decided to join another troop I ask them if there is a particular reason.  You learn a lot about your troop when you find out why scouts AREN'T joining your troop. 

[Hedgehog]

Most SPLS are better at scouting skills and rbusy unning their meetings training up good scouts [program] than they are at coddling webelos parents who have a million questions.  the SPL covers some stuff in a talk to the visiting webelos and their parents and then he wants the webelos to go try out what scouting in his troop is like.  The parents want to hover and watch and interfere.

 

So then it's appropriate to hand the parents off to someone else, Scoutmaster or an adult membership/recruiting chair who gets the adults out of the boy's meeting. 

 

So SPL talks mostly to the visiting scouts with parents hanging out.

The SM does a sm conference with visiting webelos and may do a quick talk to the parents too..

 

 

In our Troop, the SPLs start off the meeting, have the Webelos come up and introduce themselves, go through our Troop portion of the meeting and then send the Webelos off with the patrols.  The PLs answer the Webelos' questions.  The SPL then takes the parents aside and talks to them.  The SM is there, but remains silent except to answer questons that the SPL can't answer (which are very few).  Thus, the adults are out of the patrol meetings and the boys get to experience what really happens.  There is nothing that explains boy-led better than having a boy demonstrate what it means to the parents by actually leading.  To me, this experience is the beginning of buy-in to the boy-led concept by the adults.  Every one of them is sitting there thinking that in 5 years, the person up in front could be their son and they also understand that all the advancement stuff just happens when the program is run by boys who want to have fun and want to go on adventures in the outdoors.  

 

I really think the way our Troop does visits says something about the way our troop is run. Thre are three other troops in our town, each is different and has a different feel.  Some run like well oiled machines (due to the adults), others are small and tight knit, another has a longstanding Scoutmaster and we are a rag-tag bunch of disorganized goofballs who somehow manage to pull off a great program.  But as our incoming SPL always tells me, "Mr. Hedgehog, that is just how we roll."

 

I remember sitting in on a Patrol Meeting when a group of Webelos visit.  One of them asked, "how often do you have elections for Patrol Leader?"  The PL responded that we have annual elections.  The scout then said, "Wow, so I guess there isn't a lot of opportunity to get a leadership position for advancement."  I was ready to jump in, wanting to respond to a question that was clearly fed to the boy by parent.  But I didn't need to.  The APL easily jumped into an explanation of what a position of responsibility was (not just being a patrol leader), how different scouts serve as leaders on camp outs when the PL or APL can't make it and how there were a lot of opportunities to learn and practice leadership even if you don't have a title.  My turn to say "WOW!" and take another sip of my coffee.

[Stosh]

As I have mentioned before if a boy can document 160 weeks (Star) or 180 weeks (Life/Eagle) leadership POR activity they get credit for the POR requirement.  If a boy doesn't want to bother with the paperwork, he had better be visibly functioning at a position for those 4/6 months so there are no questions asked whether or not the POR should have been checked off.

 

There are no official definitions as to what "functional" means.  It just means that if a boy needs a POR it's up to him to prove to others he is doing a functional effort to make that POR mean something of value to the others in the troop.

 

I believe it to be the practice that the troop only buys PL patches for the selected PL's.  Everyone else simply steps up and does the job to get credit for it.  We've been a small enough troop that one does not need a visible patch to tell everyone what they already know.

[KenD500]

@@Stosh - this reply doesn't seem to fit in this discussion.  Maybe in the SPL/PL for Small Troop thread?

[Gone]

Unfortunately, all nights are not created equally.  Some troop meetings are by the book agenda.  Others are structured differently and just won't create an exciting impression.

That's the point! Incoming Webelos want to see the program warts and all, not just what is created and rehearsed for their benefit.

 

If the unit's youth leaders are organized you should be able to publish monthly themes and have your meetings plans done weeks in advance. You should know your location if you are working with your COR. Publish all that online and stick to it. Webelos show up and participate. They either like it or they don't.

 

The last thing you want is to get all dressed up for the Webelos, have then join and then they see all the warts later.

[Eagle94-A1]

That's the point! Incoming Webelos want to see the program warts and all, not just what is created and rehearsed for their benefit...

 

...The last thing you want is to get all dressed up for the Webelos, have then join and then they see all the warts later.

 

The night my oldest son visited the second troop, and we gave advance warning too, some would politely say "organized chaos," others would say a "charley foxtrot." It was during the summer, so not as many Scouts were around. SPL was a last minute no-show, and didn't inform anyone until 5 minutes before showtime. ASPL was out of town, and only the SM had the agenda.

 

Meeting was run by the next senior scout. He did his best to run a good show, but was not prepared and didn't know the material.  After talking to the SM, he adapted to the situation, and did something that was needed to be done, and he could do. Really impressed me that a 12 year old could take over unexpectedly and adapt to the situation. Also impressed my son. He had a great time, and that was the troop he joined.

[Eagledad]

I've said before that its the adults who get flustered, not the scouts with pop in visits. This discussion kind of supports that.

 

I'm not proposing that a troop risk showing its worst side and I'm not even really suggesting a troop show off its typical program. For me its just staying out of the way of our scouts' scheduled program. It is hard enough for the scouts to run an all year program with the normal issues that pop up, now we want to add "Webelos Day"?

 

I had to laugh when stosh says he trains his scouts for surprise visits. He trains them to do what? What I think he really means is that his scouts are prepared for visitors anytime they visit with a set of procedures, same as ours. Our SPL has a policy to meet the Webs and parents at the door and introduce himself. Then he mixes the Webelos in with the Patrols. After the flag ceremony, he pulls the parents together to briefly explain the program and answer questions for about 5 minutes. Then the SM takes the parents and further explains the program and answer questions while the SPL goes off to his normal duties. It has very little interruption to the normal program and really none to the PLs. My point is that it is a lot easier for our scouts to not plan some kind of special Webelos visit program and just work with visitors when they pop in.

 

Same goes with campouts, the program isn't going to change. The PLC just works the visitors in as best they can. We once had a den pop in on our rappelling campout. They couldn't rappel with our scouts because they missed all the training the previous month, but observing our scouts in actions was still exciting for them. And a couple of our adults knew of a nearby location where the Webelos could do some rock climbing for their level of maturity and experience. They left before dinner and joined our troop a month later. Again, no sweat off the scouts to cater to the Webelos  because they ran their normal program. 

 

Barry