blw2 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 As we kick off our 2nd year for WEBELOS, I'm starting to think more about the choice my son faces, and how i can best guide him and the other boys in the den. I figure it comes down to about 99.95% in favor of where their friends go, but still it seems that the boys really should consider their options.... We really have three troops to choose from, based on geography. A few boys may have 1 or 2 others, but primarily it's 3 troops. 1) one of them isn't much of a consideration IMO, based on some unscouter-like stuff from the leaders, but some of our boys have older brothers and dads there.... 2) The second one also has older brothers and dads involved, and is our CO's troop (my church). Sort of boy lead, but in many ways it feels like 3rd year WEBELOS from the outside anyway 3) The 3rd troop is an unknown for me. It's the one that boys from my son's school's pack go to. In another thread a few weeks back, one of you posted with some very sound advice of questions to ask and what to look for in a troop visit. It was a sidetrack to the thread, so I figured I'd start a new topic... It seems like a multi-layered issue to me... the boys need to visit, ask questions, etc.... but so do us parents. So I'm trying to build a list of questions to have in mind.... maybe two lists....one for adults to consider, and another for the boys to consider.... and starting to think about how we might coach the boys to consider their options. I'm looking for suggestions and also any comments or tips on: what to look for how to conduct a troop visit (NOT from the troop's perspective, but from the perspective of the visiting WEBELOS scout, parent, and den leader) questions to ask Here's my starting draft of a list of questions.... Troop Shopping Questions: How big is your troop? How Assistant SM’s? how many boys? ask Adults - Who leads your troop? ask Boys - Who leads your troop? How are the decisions made such as where you are going and when? How is your youth participation rate in activities (%)? How much interaction is there between adults and boys? How are your patrols formed? Who decides? Do your patrols get reformed periodically? For what reasons? Who drives it? Who decides? What nights and times are your meetings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I would add: How do you handle disciplinary issues? Have you ever had a serious accident or problem in the troop? How was it handled? Are your adult leaders trained? What training do they have? Are your youth leaders trained? What training do they have? What leadership positions are scouts allowed to have in the first year? Second year? What are the requirements for these leadership positions? (Hint: they should have a document they can email to you) What % of your boys are 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or camp outs?) I could go on. I was one of those guys who had 400 questions. Basically my questions fell in to a few categories. First, how vibrant was the troop? How active were they? Did they have a good supply of young leaders or were they all 16 and never really around? I wanted to make sure that super-scout 16 year old SPL was not just window dressing and that these super scouts would be around. Second, I wanted to know about the training of the leaders. Leaders who have a lot of BSA training are usually very BSA oriented and usually are more patient with kids....not always, but usually. Also, I wanted to know that when my kid is in the wild he will have folks who know when to take shelter and when to head home. Did they know first aid or wilderness first aid? Were their shotgun range folks certified. Did they have the proper ratio of RSOs/Instructors to shooters. Third, I wanted to know how the unit ran their leadership for youth. Was there training? Did younger scouts get leadership opportunities or were they reserved for older scouts? How did they develop their leaders? My last issue was their outdoor program and their troop meetings. If they didn't camp a lot or go on high adventure the likely were not a good fit. If their troop meetings were boring talkfests, then they'd likely bore my scout and he'd quit. To find out ask to attend several meetings. You will see if it is boy-run or adult-run. You will find out if it is boring or not. I am sure others will post a ton of other questions. These were my chief concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) I would add: How do you handle disciplinary issues? I've never had a serious disciplinary issue in the troop. I spent a lot of time pre-preping issues so they tend not to happen. The little issues are handled by the PL's. Have you ever had a serious accident or problem in the troop? How was it handled? Nope. I may be the exception, however. Are your adult leaders trained? What training do they have? Yep. All have YPT and position specific training. One or both parents from each family needs to be registered. Are your youth leaders trained? What training do they have? Yep. JLT, and TLT to a certain extent, but GBB training for sure. Then I supplement it was SMC's when the PL's are struggling. What leadership positions are scouts allowed to have in the first year? Second year? What are the requirements for these leadership positions? (Hint: they should have a document they can email to you) Any boy in the troop can hold any position. He is selected by his peers and serves at their pleasure. If he doesn't perform up to expectation, he can and will be replaced on the spot. They are allowed to hold the position for as long as they wish and do the job. What % of your boys are 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or camp outs?) Right now all my boys are 11-13. We're a new troop and we're basically just starting out with our Webelos cross-overs at this point. I could go on. I was one of those guys who had 400 questions. Basically my questions fell in to a few categories. First, how vibrant was the troop? How active were they? Did they have a good supply of young leaders or were they all 16 and never really around? I wanted to make sure that super-scout 16 year old SPL was not just window dressing and that these super scouts would be around. I have noticed I generally lose scouts because they don''t want to work. They tend to want to be entertained and taken care of by others. I have no problem helping them find new troops that will take care of them. Second, I wanted to know about the training of the leaders. Leaders who have a lot of BSA training are usually very BSA oriented and usually are more patient with kids....not always, but usually. Also, I wanted to know that when my kid is in the wild he will have folks who know when to take shelter and when to head home. Did they know first aid or wilderness first aid? Were their shotgun range folks certified. Did they have the proper ratio of RSOs/Instructors to shooters. Third, I wanted to know how the unit ran their leadership for youth. Was there training? Did younger scouts get leadership opportunities or were they reserved for older scouts? How did they develop their leaders? My last issue was their outdoor program and their troop meetings. If they didn't camp a lot or go on high adventure the likely were not a good fit. If their troop meetings were boring talkfests, then they'd likely bore my scout and he'd quit. To find out ask to attend several meetings. You will see if it is boy-run or adult-run. You will find out if it is boring or not. I am sure others will post a ton of other questions. These were my chief concerns. Every troop is different, every boy is different. With that said, each troop needs to adapt to the boy's needs and the boys need to step up and adapt to the troop as well. Just lost my best scout, he prefers his parents drive him 35 miles to a different troop because it has older boys and he won't have to do as much work. He lives 4 blocks from where we currently meet. He has a tendency to quit when things get a bit difficult, so it's probably a good idea he moves on. One can't expect a brand new troop to have 16 year old scouts that will do all the work for the younger boys. He's not yet 2nd Class, but he does have 16 MB's. I hope he fits in well with his new troop. Those that can't adapt to the troops will need to find one that doesn't require it. Actually boys that select troops based on the fact that all their buddies are going there don't always work out well in the long run. With that being said, they'll stick with their buddies anyway. Edited August 14, 2015 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It seems like a multi-layered issue to me... This is so so true. But it's multi-layered even more than scout versus parent perspective. I've been part of a Webelos den shopping for troops multiple times. Too many times. IMHO, it's over-emphasized and you just don't get a real feel for a troop from the outside. Troops that look great may not be. IMHO, troop shopping is less about finding the right troop and more about educating parents about how boy scouts works. Plus, IMHO, there are many negatives. - After one son joins a troop, parents are rightfully motivated to guide as many of their next son's friends / Webelos into that troop too. AND ... it defeats a real comparison. - Troop program becomes manipulated to satisfy the shopping needs of the Webelos. - Minor personality conflicts are often empowered to become major deciding factors. Troops need scouts to survive. Older scouts need younger scouts to teach and to keep energy of the scouting program going. IMHO, strongly consider your pack's charter org troop. Not only out of loyalty, but because it sets a pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 IMHO, strongly consider your pack's charter org troop. Not only out of loyalty, but because it sets a pattern. But how heavily should you weight loyalty? From my perspective it would be the deciding factor if things are even. If not, I would not feel compelled to go to my pack's CO troop if they were not a better fit than the others. Also, one thing to consider not yet mentioned: How open are units to change? Those that are not usually have both good and bad "traditions" that might not fit with you or your son. Change is needed...especially when the old guard moves on and the new folks become those who rule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 My thoughts. 1) Scouts should eb asking the bulk of the questions. Yes us old fogewy parents have to know things too, but the boys need to ask. 2) Some of the questions I would suggest the Scouts to ask other scouts are the following; A. Who picks the PLs and SPL? B. How often do you camp? C. What type of camp outs you go on? D. Who decides on the camp outs? E. How much do they generally cost? F. What type of gear I need to have? G. Are there any plans for High Adventure? H Can I camp with you guys before joining? 3) Parents need to ask the above questions too, and compare answers ( you may be surprised) Plus the following: DO YOU YOU FUNDRAISE? ( emphasis). Now some folks have challenges with "Troop Shopping," and I honestly understand where he is coming from, and his concerns. And yes, all things being equal, you should support your CO's troop. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you visit a troop, and they do not use the Patrol Method properly. Their camp outs are multistage disasters with folks not doing what they are suppose to do, taking care of equipment, or even making messes. Kinda sad when a first year Webelos can say, " ...this isn't how a troop is suppose to work." Also remember that if you do join a troop and it doesn't meet your son's needs, he can switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenD500 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Scouts: 1. describe your last camp out 2. describe your last Troop meeting Adults 1. describe your last camp out 2. describe your last Troop meeting 3. how are communications handled? 4. what is your yearly fundraising plan? After a scheduled visit, make sure to visit unannounced. Does the unannounced meeting look/feel like the scheduled visit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 all very great points, and some great suggestions! .....Actually boys that select troops based on the fact that all their buddies are going there don't always work out well in the long run. With that being said, they'll stick with their buddies anyway. I would believe that it's not the best criterion to consider, but he's 10. & my 10 year old isn't king social and only has a few good friends. Jsut started school and was put in a class with none of his friends..... he's getting by with a positive enough attitude, but seems pretty miserable.... He'll go where his friends do if left to him, no matter how bad the rest of it is. and that's really my point.... to at least prime the pumps with potential questions.... I know what I would do, and most folks will..... at some point we'll arrange for a troop visit as part of the AOl requirements. The troop will be ready for it, with some planned presentation &/or activity. We'll sit like good lumps on the log, and soak it in, trying to get a read on the people and the troop. We'll ask a few questions that come to mind, but we'll miss a whole lot of stuff.... IF we don't prepare! even if the troop answers the questions honestly, instead of what they think we want to hear, the point as I see it isn't so much the answer itself as a conduit to read the people and the troop.... such as @@Stosh 's comments about his lack of older boys, for example.... @@fred johnson, I think that's kinda to your point too. And to your point, and @@Eagle94-A1, because it's my church.... my CO's troop would be where I would prefer to go and prefer to steer my son, if all things are equal..... but I think it would be dumb to not look closely at the other choice. I seriously doubt if either is the perfect model of patrol method and boy lead and folks not worried about their egos, and adventure trips, and so on..... But my hope is that my son and friends can pick the best option for them, and for the right reasons.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 After a scheduled visit, make sure to visit unannounced. Does the unannounced meeting look/feel like the scheduled visit? that seems like a great suggestion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Unexpected/short noticed visits are a great idea. Both troops my son visited had about 3-4 days notice. Best feel is a camp out with them. That is when your son can really see them in action, and your son can see if the troop is for him or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 My boys are trained to handle unannounced visits by either a Webelos den or an individual...so even unannounced you may get a troop that is prepared to put on a good show anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 I'll bet many aren't that good @@Stosh! Here's my rough list so far.... again, I'm thinking this is just a list of questions for priming the pump.... could ask some, might scroll down and ask them all, or might just use it as an example of the "kinds of questions you might want to ask" Troop Shopping Questions: How big is your troop? How Assistant SM’s? how many boys? ask Adults - Who leads your troop? ask Boys - Who leads your troop? How long has the leadership been in place? Are any getting ready to move on? (aged out kids or other reasons) How are the decisions made such as where you are going and when? What sorts of trips do you do? special outings normal outings? high adventure? How is your youth participation rate in activities (%)? How much interaction is there between adults and boys? How are your patrols formed? Who decides? Do your patrols get reformed periodically? For what reasons? Who drives it? Who decides? What nights and times are your meetings? Do you have any new scout normal practices, special patrols or duties? What leadership positions are scouts allowed to have in the first year? Second year? What are the requirements for these leadership positions? (Hint: they should have a document they can email to you) How do you handle disciplinary issues? Are your adult leaders trained? What training do they have? Are your youth leaders trained? What training do they have? Age split of the troop (%) 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or campouts?) Do you have rangemasters or RSO’s in the troop? Merit badge counselors in the troop? How are merit badges taught and what prompts it? What if anything do you require from parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 that seems like a great suggestion! Actually, IMHO that's not a good idea at all. Not only can it be seen as rude, but I've seen it mess up the troop's plans for for the night. If you are planning to visit, it's just simple politeness and courtesy to let them know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I don't see a problem with that suggestion in that people do it all the time. When was the last time one called ahead to notify a church that they will be coming to visit? How about the YMCA? Boy & Girls Club? A private school? Why would it be any different for a Boy Scout troop or pack unless they aren't really buying into the whole "Be Prepared" concept. Nothing rude about someone taking an interest in the group and checking them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Why would it be any different for a Boy Scout troop or pack unless they aren't really buying into the whole "Be Prepared" concept. False comparison to a church. Churches are big open meetings with plenty of seating. One or two more guests don't mess up the service at all. A more accurate comparison would be to a formal wedding reception where there is fixed amount of food, chairs and tables. They may make you welcome, but the surprise adds stress to their detailed plans. In contrast, "troop shopping" means a marketing performance by the troop and investment by the troop members (adult and scouts). Those "shopping" will also have a set of questions that demands time and attention. It's either politely arranged or an impromptu performance. The trouble with the impromptu "catch the troop as they really are" is that the troop already has a meeting plan that includes objectives and goals. Adult leaders also have plans and goals. Having a den of Webelos show up unannounced is a sure way to blow that troop's planning and potentially create a problem for them. A troop that plans and each scout knows their job may appear as not very welcoming or gracious or hospitable. Yeah. That's because your surprise visit added unexpected stress to their evening. One or more of the troop's meeting plans now need to be dumped. Scouts are pulled from other activities to meet, greet, play, teach and interact with the Webelos. The scouts that are trained and assigned to do such tasks may not even be present. Adult leaders will have to give up their plans to answer the adult's troop shopping questions. It is very good odds that if the troop does plan their evenings, your surprise visit may very well cause the troop meeting to run 30 to 45 minutes late. Or, a scout's SMC or BOR will be delayed. BSA itself says in the "Webelos Leader Guide" .. "These trips should be part of your annual Webelos den program, planned in cooperation with the troop." It goes on to say "Remember that your Webelos Scouts are still Cub Scouts, and some Boy Scout activities are not appropriate for their age." If your Webelos showed up at our troop unannounced, we could handle it and the Webelos would probably have a good impression. But it would probably throw at least one or two of our troop plans out the window. Here's another BSA source: Unit Commissioner field book. BSA #33621. "It's usually a good idea to show the courtesy of a phone call before you visit a unit meeting. This helps guarantee a warm welcome. It also shows unit leaders you are not trying to surprise them or catch them off-guard." It's common courtesy. The same manners that we try to teach our scouts too. http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/relationships/etiquette-manners/is-being-an-unexpected-guest-bad-manners Edited August 16, 2015 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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