What Is Your Troop Doing To Prepare For The 2016 Requirements?

[NJCubScouter]

BadWolf, actually I think that if a new Scout joins in December, earns the Scout badge in December (and is then considered to be "working on Tenderfoot"), it would be up to that Scout (not the PLC) to choose the new or old requirements through First Class.

[Stosh]

If I sign on with a valid commitment/contract with a business and they change the rules in the middle, Isn't that a breach of contract?

 

When I was in college I started with graduation requirements spelled out in the academic handbook.  When I graduated, the programs had changed, the courses had changed, even the different departments changed.  If I wanted to I had the option to change to the new requirements at any time or stay with what was stated in the original contract.  I graduated with a degree in Business Administration under the School of Arts, Letters and Sciences instead of the new School of Business.  When all the smoke settled it made absolutely no difference whatsoever to any of my employers.

 

If my kids want to stick with the old requirements because that is what the BSA promised them, it's fine with me.  If they lose their book and need to buy a new one, they use whatever requirements are listed in the book they have.  

[Gone]

BadWolf, actually I think that if a new Scout joins in December, earns the Scout badge in December (and is then considered to be "working on Tenderfoot"), it would be up to that Scout (not the PLC) to choose the new or old requirements through First Class.

Council advancement chair has recommended this approach. Under the current rules, if we award Scout in late December the boys would use the 2016 requirements. Most units are going to use this approach to help with advancement admin.

[NJCubScouter]

Council advancement chair has recommended this approach. Under the current rules, if we award Scout in late December the boys would use the 2016 requirements. Most units are going to use this approach to help with advancement admin.

It may be easier to administer, but I think the transition rules would allow the Scout to choose the old requirements if they make Scout before Jan. 1.

[blw2]

Don't know. From the podcast the person speaking for BSA seemed to toss the two dates out not realizing this would be an issue (or not caring it was an issue). Kind of hard to miss. We are encouraging Webelos to cross over in December this year so we can get them in under the wire BUT we will not advise them to get handbooks until the new ones are printed. It will eliminate any problems due to the BSA's lack of timing.

 

 

Agreed. My concern is the lack of uniform understanding around the timeline. Many units I speak to erroneously think they have a year to work in the new requirements. Despite the FAQ and podcast being out there, many still have the wrong idea.

 

 

So in other words, the new Scouts will do the requirements for Scout through First Class that are in the current handbook, but the handbook they will have is the new handbook, that doesn't have those requirements? Or to put it another way, they will be working out of a handbook that will not have the correct requirements (for them) until they are working on Star? That seems very cumbersome and error-prone, especially for a 10-and-a-half year old just joining the troop. But I understand the problem, you don't want them having to buy a book and then have to buy another book about a year later. I guess the best answer is photocopying pages from the old book to put in the new book, which is also cumbersome (and of questionable legality I suppose.)

 

Maybe what the BSA should do is publish the new handbook (at least the first printing, to be sold through the end of 2016) with an attached pamphlet in the back with the old requirements and places to sign them off. (And not charge any more for the pamphlet.) But past experience suggests there will be no pamphlet, and certainly not for free.

 

 

We thought about that approach but the PLC voted against it. They *did* want to get Scout out of the way under the 2015 requirements.

 

We will get a clean start on 2016 after the book is released....assuming it is released on time.

 

@, I'm feeling a little slow this morning.... and I'm having difficulty in understanding the advantage of the December start

 

Why not just encourage a more typical January/February crossover and let the new boys start with the new books?  That just seems so much cleaner to me.... I'm sure I'm missing an angle....

 

I think I mentioned before, we are on track to cross our 2nd year WEBELOS in January.  This was driven by the new pack leadership taking over, and I wasn't in the loop on their reasoning for departing from the usual February event.  Our 2nd Year WEBELOS DL wasn't directly involved with it... which bothers me by the way, but he's ok with it.....

My son will be done with his AOL in December since the only things he has left to do is pass the "time active" requirement and do the troop visits. I think all of the other boys have a bit more than that to do, but they'll be on track for December....

 

SO, while I doubt I would have any luck in persuading them to moving up to December, I'm curious about your reasoning!

[NJCubScouter]

blw2, I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I did notice that the new requirements for Scout are a lot more numerous than the old requirements. They are (very roughly) double the previous requirements. They have moved the taut line hitch and two half hitches and whipping a rope from Tenderfoot to Scout. Instead of just "understand and agree to live by" the Oath, Law, etc., now it will be "Repeat from memory." And they have added some other things that were not there at all. So if someone was trying to give the new Scouts (maybe we need to call them something else now to avoid confusion - new recruits? new crossovers?) a break by squeaking them in under the old requirements for the first rank, that would be the way to do it. Personally I don't think it's worth rushing a crossover over, but maybe that's just me.

[Gone]

It may be easier to administer, but I think the transition rules would allow the Scout to choose the old requirements if they make Scout before Jan. 1.

 

If council gives us the thumb's up we are good to go with their blessing....which we have. I consider it blessed and done.

 

@, I'm feeling a little slow this morning.... and I'm having difficulty in understanding the advantage of the December start

 

 

No BOR for Scout, just a quick review of requirements, an SMC and award. The new requirements are a bit more involved and require a BOR.

 

As our council put it, they don't consider Scout "on the road to FC" under the 2015 requirements. Once 2016 comes, Scout is the first step on that path. 

Edited August 28, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[5yearscouter]

if they do scout with the old requirements and then do the rest of trail to first class under the new requirements, then there will be things they moved from tenderfoot into the scout badge that they will never have to do.  They probably will do them informally, but it doesn't make sense to skip them completely in some aim to make scout badge easier.

 

I would just start any end of 2015 or early 2016 new scouts clean with new requirements, start to work on scout badge if they cross over in December, but finish them in January when you get the new book.  Some troops were basically handing webelos their scout badge as soon as they crossed over the bridge into scouting, and this will put a stop to that.  They'll have to give them something aside from a scout badge to welcome them to the troop--like give the troop neckerchief or troop numbers or a hat or something. lol. 

 

Our only recommendation from our troop to webelos dens will be to try to complete the cyber chit card as a den before crossing over, as that is the one thing new for scout badge that the troop doesn't regularly do at all.  if they have already earned the Cyber chit for their grade at the end of Webelos it should "count" toward that requirement for scout badge too.

 

As soon as they join a troop they are a Boy Scout, like as soon as they join a pack they are a Cub Scout.  We call them scouts and that has nothing to do with whether they've earned the Scout badge or not.  Calling them recruits makes it sounds military.  They are just new scouts, plain and simple.  don't make it harder than it really is by thinking up some other word to use to describe the newly joined scouts.

[5yearscouter]

If council gives us the thumb's up we are good to go with their blessing....which we have. I consider it blessed and done.

 

 

No BOR for Scout, just a quick review of requirements, an SMC and award. The new requirements are a bit more involved and require a BOR.

 

As our council put it, they don't consider Scout "on the road to FC" under the 2015 requirements. Once 2016 comes, Scout is the first step on that path. 

The new Scout badge requirements don't require a BOR. 

 

Also historically in our troop crossovers who join in December don't really do ANYTHING until January.  So keep that in mind that you may have scouts who crossover, join the troop, come to one meeting, may or may not get scout badge done, then get busy with final weeks of schools, family Christmas stuff, and next thing you know it's January. 

 

Then you have half the crossover den of webelos who did the super speedy scout badge requirements, and the other half the den that has to go thru the bigger deal, and you have best friends at odds and pissed off parents wondering why their son has to do twice the work even though they all joined at the same time.  Sort of gonna depend on what your troop does in December, ours usually has a lock in with parade and service project, fun activity, but meetings after the first week of December become very very spotty due to all the other things that happen in family life in December.

[5yearscouter]

If I sign on with a valid commitment/contract with a business and they change the rules in the middle, Isn't that a breach of contract?

 

When I was in college I started with graduation requirements spelled out in the academic handbook.  When I graduated, the programs had changed, the courses had changed, even the different departments changed.  If I wanted to I had the option to change to the new requirements at any time or stay with what was stated in the original contract.  I graduated with a degree in Business Administration under the School of Arts, Letters and Sciences instead of the new School of Business.  When all the smoke settled it made absolutely no difference whatsoever to any of my employers.

 

If my kids want to stick with the old requirements because that is what the BSA promised them, it's fine with me.  If they lose their book and need to buy a new one, they use whatever requirements are listed in the book they have.  

This is basically what our troop has done for any of the minor changes that have come along in the last few years.  You work on the requirements in your book.  Then you get to working on Eagle Rank and have to true up your requirements for that rank to be sure you aren't missing a part when you are doing all the checks and balances for the rank, since someone outside of the troop looks things over.  It screws up boys who transfer to other troops in the middle of a rank, and find the other troop follows the BSA regulations on the matter.  Usually they can finish the current rank under old requirements and new rank needs to be new requirements but it gets difficult to track who is on which set of requirements.

[blw2]

blw2, I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I did notice that the new requirements for Scout are a lot more numerous than the old requirements. They are (very roughly) double the previous requirements. They have moved the taut line hitch and two half hitches and whipping a rope from Tenderfoot to Scout. Instead of just "understand and agree to live by" the Oath, Law, etc., now it will be "Repeat from memory." And they have added some other things that were not there at all. So if someone was trying to give the new Scouts (maybe we need to call them something else now to avoid confusion - new recruits? new crossovers?) a break by squeaking them in under the old requirements for the first rank, that would be the way to do it. Personally I don't think it's worth rushing a crossover over, but maybe that's just me.

well, that's certainly something to consider I guess.

 

I will say this.... taught line hitch, whipping a rope.... my 2nd year webelos son has been taught and has demonstrated these for a couple years now.... starting Bear year.  Not saying he'd remember it if I blindsided him today with it, but these were taught to him already as part of the WEBELOS Akela weekend both Bear year and last year.... and they were done as part of a WEBELOS badge requirement in a den meeting....so he'll be half bored with it.

 

He already can recite the scout law on demand, and can almost nail the promise..... just makes little mistakes with it.

[blw2]

....Our only recommendation from our troop to webelos dens will be to try to complete the cyber chit card as a den before crossing over, as that is the one thing new for scout badge that the troop doesn't regularly do at all.  if they have already earned the Cyber chit for their grade at the end of Webelos it should "count" toward that requirement for scout badge too.....

Interesting!  I'm not familiar with that one @@5yearscouter.  I'll have to look into that issue and tell my DL.

Maybe that's a gift we can pass along to our boys.  Thanks

[fred johnson]

We're going to ignore the new requirements, at least for the first year.

 

In future years, we'll use whatever is in the version of the scout handbook that each boy happens to have.  If someone wants to use the new requirements, they can buy a new handbook. 

 

Whatever happened to 'No adding to or changing the requirements.'?  I see the needs for the changes, and like most of them; but could Irving have made the transition any more poorly?

 

Where's @@fred johnson when we need him?

 

Yeah, I've been following this topic.  It just doesn't thrill me.  BSA changing the requirements creates a moving target for the scouts.  (i.e. what are the requirements I as a scout have to fulfill)   It would also take our troop down a path I just don't want us to go.  (i.e. adults tracking detailed requirements and auditing scout handbooks for which requirement set is taped into it.)  I absolutely would not want any of our scouts showing up at a rank BOR and being told he can't advance because he was using the wrong year of requirements.  Would that really be a scout failure if we tell the scout to depend on his handbook?

 

I understand the need to update requirements.  But making requirements effective for the "next rank" defeats our telling the scout to depend on his scout handbook.  We tell them to use it.  Carry it with him.  Get people to sign off advancement in it.  The last thing I'd want is for a scout to discover that he was working a plan to get to first class and getting some of those requirements done while even a tenderfoot, and then earning that earlier rank and then receiving a new set of requirements for the rank that he had already read and learned.  What about individual rank signatures, do we transfer signatures from the old requirement page image to the new requirement page for those that are the same?  What about the slight wording differences?

 

IMHO, except maybe Eagle, BSA is wrong to force use of new requirements  Make it optional.  Either use the new requirements or the requirements in the scout's handbook.

 

As for our troop, we don't have an adult auditing current requirements versus what is in the scout book.  If we discover it, then we will help the scout be compliant with the new requirements.  Otherwise, we are auditing the scout against what is published in his scoutbook. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by fred johnson

[Eagle94-A1]

In future years, we'll use whatever is in the version of the scout handbook that each boy happens to have.  If someone wants to use the new requirements, they can buy a new handbook. 

 

Whatever happened to 'No adding to or changing the requirements.'?  I see the needs for the changes, and like most of them; but could Irving have made the transition any more poorly?

 

Please do not do this It can have major repercussions.

 

...BSA changing the requirements creates a moving target for the scouts.  (i.e. what are the requirements I as a scout have to fulfill)   It would also take our troop down a path I just don't want us to go.  (i.e. adults tracking detailed requirements and auditing scout handbooks for which requirement set is taped into it.)  I absolutely would not want any of our scouts showing up at a rank BOR and being told he can't advance because he was using the wrong year of requirements.  Would that really be a scout failure if we tell the scout to depend on his handbook?

...

 

 

We had a troop use Joe Bob's approach, whatever book the Scout had, was the requirements he had to meet. Even when requirements changed minorly, they were ignored. No outside the troop realized this until the troop folded to join Trails Life. When one of their Scouts transferred to a new troop, and it was realized that he was using the pre-2009 11th ed. requirements for Life instead of the current requirements. It caused an appeal for an extension of POR and  Active requirements for Eagle since the delay in a Life BOR resulted in him not being able to meet the 6months as a Life POR.

 

Thankfully the PTB who make the decision on appeals, realized it was not the Scout's fault, and he is Eagle. He is currently an ASM with the troop, and an OA Chapter officer.

[NJCubScouter]

I understand the need to update requirements.  But making requirements effective for the "next rank" defeats our telling the scout to depend on his scout handbook.  We tell them to use it.  Carry it with him.  Get people to sign off advancement in it.  The last thing I'd want is for a scout to discover that he was working a plan to get to first class and getting some of those requirements done while even a tenderfoot, and then earning that earlier rank and then receiving a new set of requirements for the rank that he had already read and learned.  What about individual rank signatures, do we transfer signatures from the old requirement page image to the new requirement page for those that are the same?  What about the slight wording differences?

The new requirements will not necessarily be effective with the "next rank". It depends on what rank the Scout is working on on Jan. 1, 2016. If that rank is Scout, First Class, Star or Life, then yes, for the "next rank" (Tenderfoot, Star, Life or Eagle respectively) they must start using the new requirements. But if the rank they are working on is Tenderfoot or Second Class, they may continue to use the old requirements until they make First Class. In other words, they have grouped Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class together, probably for just the reason you mention: A young man can be working on the requirements for all three at the same time.

 

Nevertheless, I agree with you that this change will cause some issues, and I think that (at least in our troop) some adult leader involvement will be necessary to make sure that each Scout is working on the correct requirements.