If Not The Native Americans - Who?

[SpEdScouter]

This discussion can piggyback on the "if Scouting began today".

 

Boy Scouts of America uses alot of native American symbolism like costumes and structure.

 

But if it wasnt for things Indian, what other culture would they emulate? Would would "Order of the Arrow" be?

 

I'm thinking possibly it would have to be military like we already have in say Sea Scouts.

[Horizon]

I would prefer to rebuild it based on the American Frontierman / Explorer. We could have Lewis & Clark, Daniel Boone, Crocket, etc. as our mythical images to use in ceremonies (allow OA members to be allowed the "oversized" Bowie knife at Scout camp).

[walk in the woods]

I would prefer to rebuild it based on the American Frontierman / Explorer. We could have Lewis & Clark, Daniel Boone, Crocket, etc. as our mythical images to use in ceremonies (allow OA members to be allowed the "oversized" Bowie knife at Scout camp).

How long would it take before folks were complaining about the BSA celebrating the genocidal occupiers.  If we were starting over today I'd guess there would be no such symbolism allowed from any prior culture.

[perdidochas]

I would prefer to rebuild it based on the American Frontierman / Explorer. We could have Lewis & Clark, Daniel Boone, Crocket, etc. as our mythical images to use in ceremonies (allow OA members to be allowed the "oversized" Bowie knife at Scout camp).

Would the name Order of the Arrow be appropriate for a non-native American themed organization?

[qwazse]

... I'm thinking possibly it would have to be military like we already have in say Sea Scouts.

Trappers and Pirates!

 

Would the name Order of the Arrow be appropriate for a non-native American themed organization?

Just need a little National Archery Association endorsement.

[Horizon]

How long would it take before folks were complaining about the BSA celebrating the genocidal occupiers.  If we were starting over today I'd guess there would be no such symbolism allowed from any prior culture.

 

Nah - you can embrace a myth, and then also acknowledge that all heroes have issues. If people actually started researching the real history of the Native tribes, they might find themselves going down a similar rathole.

 

I support the OA in all that it does, but I personally do not like the Native symbolism that we have adopted. Several of my friends in different Nations like that the OA honors them, but they wish that the boys would not wear their ceremonial garb or talk in a stilted accent as well. 

[SSScout]

Transformers? 

[Eagle94-A1]

I believe it was MOH recipient  Col. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, USMC (ret.) who once said, " Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum."

 

I admit, I am pro-Native American culture in the OA. But I am biased. I did ceremonies as a youth, and have been a dancer since youth. I've done a lot of research, made friends with the Native Community, and know a bit of the history with the OA and native cultures.

 

I've stated that at one time, the OA was a way to help preserve culture because it was illegal to practice it if you were Native. In other posts, I've discussed how Arrowmen have helped local nations in a variety of situations. Sometimes the Arrowman are recognized as such. Most times, folks do not know the OA connection to the historian, ethnologist, archeologist, publisher, etc.

 

BUT, I do see where the OA gets the bad name with the general 'Hollywood Indians" many lodges do.

[Scouter Matt]

There is a non-national honor society being used in some councils as a Venturing counterpart to OA, "Corps of Discovery", and I think it takes the Lewis and Clark type angle, but could easily fit with whatever early pioneers or explorers visited a given area.

 

Boy Scouts itself is loosely modeled on military patterns, so I don't see an honor society along military lines making sense, particularly given BSA's non-militaristic attitude. On the other hand, the one period of military history that lends itself very well to honor societies, would be a quasi-Medieval pattern, so using knighthood and chivalry as the basis.

 

There are other options, scientific pioneers, astronauts, major industrialists, all sorts of possibilities but each with rather more limited appeal.

[JasonG172]

I do not believe it to be wise to abandon native American customs, and I believe its important to teach to our boys as well.

[Rick_in_CA]

This discussion can piggyback on the "if Scouting began today".

 

Boy Scouts of America uses alot of native American symbolism like costumes and structure.

 

But if it wasnt for things Indian, what other culture would they emulate? Would would "Order of the Arrow" be?

 

I'm thinking possibly it would have to be military like we already have in say Sea Scouts.

One of the reasons that scouts uses the native American symbolism, is that it was popular with the boys of the time. Along with Tom Sawyer, Davy Crockett, Daniel Boon, the books of James Fenimore Cooper, etc. When was the last time a Davy Crockett movie was made? Visited Disneyland's Frontierland lately (it's all pirates now)? Ask your scouts if they ever read The Last of the Mohicans, or even heard about it? See you kids running around outside playing cowboy and indians lately?

 

That is why I think a lot of the native American (and general frontiersman) imagery doesn't stir the boys like it used to (though a well done OA ceremony can be quite effective).

 

If the BSA was looking for some sort of symbolism today, I think you would much more likely to see something like Jedi Knights. They are something the kids know and like, it wouldn’t be hard to build a sense of mystery around Jedi Knights, and there is a ready made code of conduct that can be adapted (ignoring licensing issues). Lots of the same stuff the native American symbolism brought to the table back then. The one important thing that is missing with Jedi Knights however, is a strong connection to the outdoors. Unfortunately I don't know of any popular cultural memes that have that outside of reality television (Survivor, Man vs Wild, Naked and Afraid, etc.). Which is why I agree with people that if the scouting movement was starting today, it probably wouldn’t have a strong outdoor focus.

[SpEdScouter]

I do not believe it to be wise to abandon native American customs, and I believe its important to teach to our boys as well.

Nor do I. We are Americans and as such, we should honor those people whom first settled this land. Here in the midwest we also have a big NA population (our troop has a Dad and 3 kids - all Navaho).

 

I imagine a troop from Hawaii might find it silly to wear feathers and headresses like say the Cherokee or Sioux Indians and might use Hawaiian native themes.

[walk in the woods]

Nah - you can embrace a myth, and then also acknowledge that all heroes have issues. If people actually started researching the real history of the Native tribes, they might find themselves going down a similar rathole.

 

I support the OA in all that it does, but I personally do not like the Native symbolism that we have adopted. Several of my friends in different Nations like that the OA honors them, but they wish that the boys would not wear their ceremonial garb or talk in a stilted accent as well. 

No doubt.  My initial response was overly cynical.  I do kind of like the frontiersman/explorer idea (Order of the Blade/Bowie?) but I'm not sure any cultural emulation would be acceptable if we were starting today.  Maybe we'd have to go with Order of the Forest to keep with outdoor themes and just be scouts?