Rick_in_CA Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Real convergence of a girls' organization and boys' organization will look something like the alliance between AHG and TL http://www.americanheritagegirls.org/media/filer_public/6f/0d/6f0d726c-54e9-4287-a085-5560f3358a72/ahg-tlusa_moma.pdf Will American Trail Heritage Life be the first all-ages coed scouting option available to more than 1000 chartering organizations the US? Depends on what is meant by coed. I can easily see TL and AHG merging, but I don't see them merging their units beyond the committee level. The reason is that TL doesn't allow female leaders (though they do allow female committee members). Last I heard, AHG didn't allow male leaders. So the troops would have to function as single gender units, so at the scout level they would not be coed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) But with a pretty specific focus. In reading that document I counted seven different reminders that someone like me would not be welcome in their group. Not that I would want to join even if I were allowed to, so I'm not offended by it, mostly just amused. Don't you like joining organizations and changing their character? Edited July 31, 2015 by Scouter99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Don't you like joining organizations and changing their character? The BSA has not changed its character. Excluding gay people from all units, regardless of what those units wanted, and imposing one religious belief on everybody, was contrary to the fundamental values and character of Scouting. That is what this has been all about. (But if you want to discuss that, please do it in a different thread, so this thread stays on track.) Edited July 31, 2015 by NJCubScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 But with a pretty specific focus. In reading that document I counted seven different reminders that someone like me would not be welcome in their group. Not that I would want to join even if I were allowed to, so I'm not offended by it, mostly just amused. Well, this topic is about musings ... We were musing about BSAs next move. Just 5. Years ago, it was toward a loose federation of organizations like AHG, whose administrative structure meshed with COs wanting programs that include all of their youth constituents. As other scouters including yourself at the time discussed, treating AHG was a sister org would be like pulling teeth. Well, it looks like TL has what it takes to bag that lion. Depends on what is meant by coed. I can easily see TL and AHG merging, but I don't see them merging their units beyond the committee level. The reason is that TL doesn't allow female leaders (though they do allow female committee members). Last I heard, AHG didn't allow male leaders. So the troops would have to function as single gender units, so at the scout level they would not be coed.I see this operating in a way we have never seen with GSUSA and BSA. Scouts would meet under the same roof on the same night. Open and close together, and in some COs have break-out sessions for the respective sexes, in others participate together for the duration. It has the potential to be extremely flexible.The CO calls the shots as to how closely the committees works together. That's how things can operate based on they way the groups are currently organized. If they pull resources and share membership registration, awards programs, etc ... they will accomplish exactly what scouters on this thread said they would never see or want to happen. Niche market? Definitely. But a big niche who has been looking for something like this for some time. The only question that will will remain is: will BSA and GSUSA follow their lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 The BSA has not changed its character. Excluding gay people from all units, regardless of what those units wanted, and imposing one religious belief on everybody, was contrary to the fundamental values and character of Scouting. That is what this has been all about. (But if you want to discuss that, please do it in a different thread, so this thread stays on track.) I started this thread as a general observation that can lead to anywhere.... there is no thread to stay on track of. "Alrighty then, now that we have that settled, .... a change of character for the BSA means what? This thread is open to just this sort of ponderings about such things as a major shift in the character of BSA. By the way, are we to assume that it is your belief that BSA has been promoting activity which was contrary to the fundamental values and character of Scouting for over 100 years????? One would have thought this issue would have been brought up many, many years ago if that be the case. By the way, I happen to agree with @@Scouter99 that such changes are changing the character of the BSA one way or the other, and if there are those out there that wish to discuss this on THIS THREAD, I for one would like to hear it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Ok, I've seen the argument far too often stating that the "fundamental values and character of Scouting" were not founded in the exclusion of (x) group. I've seen people argue that morally straight is inherent in those same fundamentals and means (x) behaviour is not welcome. Can we find ANY statements from BSA over the years to corroborate these positions? I'd truly like to know if any of these positions can be backed up with evidence. Edited July 31, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Aw, too bad you didn't smack him. Even worse, I wasn't there to see you smack him. I've seen almost the same thing too.... and far too many kits and cars that were clearly dad built. Sometimes I would ask the boy, "did you make that?".... and he'd of course say yes, since he probably did do a bit of sanding or something.... all I could do is shrug and quietly shake my head.... It all depends on your definition of "did" I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You won't find any documentation from the Boy Scouts of America specifically stating that gays and lesbians (or even homosexuals) could not be members of the BSA, were not morally straight, and could not be the best kind of leaders until the 1980's. For most of it's history, it was silent on the issue. It didn't become an issue until the move from New Jersey to Texas, and even I don't think that's a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Ok, I've seen the argument far too often stating that the "fundamental values and character of Scouting" were not founded in the exclusion of (x) group. I've seen people argue that morally straight is inherent in those same fundamentals and means (x) behaviour is not welcome. Can we find ANY statements from BSA over the years to corroborate these positions? I'd truly like to know if any of these positions can be backed up with evidence. .... ah, lets start with the name.... BOY Scouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've seen almost the same thing too.... and far too many kits and cars that were clearly dad built. Sometimes I would ask the boy, "did you make that?".... and he'd of course say yes, since he probably did do a bit of sanding or something.... all I could do is shrug and quietly shake my head.... It all depends on your definition of "did" I guess. My pinewood derby cars were built by my dad (though my younger brothers built their own, with help from dad). I really wasn't big on model making - my idea of a pinewood derby car was to paint the block of wood as it was, glue on the wheels, toss on a few stickers, and viola - je suis finis (btw, I did just that as a Den Chief for the Den Chief races (we had a big pack at the time - 10 dens + 2 Webelos dens, and enough Den Chiefs to form a small Troop) and won - the only car I had that did win). When I was asked, I was proud to say my dad built it - all I did was add a couple of stickers. Not every kid is going to be in to building the pinewood derby car - keep that in mind before slapping a dad upside the head (though the dad who wouldn't even let the boy touch the car? Yeah - he deserves a smack on the head). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You won't find any documentation from the Boy Scouts of America specifically stating that gays and lesbians (or even homosexuals) could not be members of the BSA, were not morally straight, and could not be the best kind of leaders until the 1980's. For most of it's history, it was silent on the issue. It didn't become an issue until the move from New Jersey to Texas, and even I don't think that's a coincidence. Did they get rid of all the Northeastern execs who ran BSA and hire a bunch of conservative southern Baptists just with that move? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 My pinewood derby cars were built by my dad (though my younger brothers built their own, with help from dad). I really wasn't big on model making - my idea of a pinewood derby car was to paint the block of wood as it was, glue on the wheels, toss on a few stickers, and viola - je suis finis (btw, I did just that as a Den Chief for the Den Chief races (we had a big pack at the time - 10 dens + 2 Webelos dens, and enough Den Chiefs to form a small Troop) and won - the only car I had that did win). When I was asked, I was proud to say my dad built it - all I did was add a couple of stickers. Not every kid is going to be in to building the pinewood derby car - keep that in mind before slapping a dad upside the head (though the dad who wouldn't even let the boy touch the car? Yeah - he deserves a smack on the head). There's also a bit to be said that a boy showing up with a dad built car is far better than showing up with no car at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Ok, I've seen the argument far too often stating that the "fundamental values and character of Scouting" were not founded in the exclusion of (x) group. I've seen people argue that morally straight is inherent in those same fundamentals and means (x) behaviour is not welcome. Can we find ANY statements from BSA over the years to corroborate these positions? I'd truly like to know if any of these positions can be backed up with evidence. BSA listed known homosexuals in its ineligible volunteer files labeled "Perversion" (there are 2 or 3 other categories) as soon as they started the system in the 1920s, 60 years before Calico would have you believe that BSA began excluding homosexuals. Calling someone a pervert and barring them from volunteering is as loud and clear as it gets. My pithy response was just that. Edited July 31, 2015 by Scouter99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 There's also a bit to be said that a boy showing up with a dad built car is far better than showing up with no car at all.or not showing up period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You won't find any documentation from the Boy Scouts of America specifically stating that gays and lesbians (or even homosexuals) could not be members of the BSA, were not morally straight, and could not be the best kind of leaders until the 1980's. For most of it's history, it was silent on the issue. It didn't become an issue until the move from New Jersey to Texas, and even I don't think that's a coincidence. I suspect the timing might have more to do with homosexuality being removed from the DSM in the mid 70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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