Policy Statement From The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod On Scouting

[CalicoPenn]

Ok - I can see that argument but it could also be said that since canon law elevates civil courts above eccliastical courts and since civil courts do not hear canon law cases, only secular law cases, it does, in a way, elevate civil law above canon law.

[Stosh]

I have read very little of canon law, I doubt most of us have so I relied on a statement from Charles Wilson, executive director of the St. Joseph Foundation which is the American Catholic Church's scholarly think tank on canon law who said that, and these are his words:

 

"According to canon law itself, the jurisdiction of civil courts is paramount - it's not just that the Church defers to civil law, it adopts civil law as its own."

 

So according to the Catholic Church's own canon law think tank, not only does the church put civil law ahead of canon law, it also adopts civil law within canon law and on top of that is elevates civil courts to the highest jurisdiction.

 

And this is why I see every day, white crosses in the Catholic cemetery memorializing the holocaust of the innocents that were  aborted and people picketing daily, the "Catholic" hospital now bought up by the Mayo Clinic and performing abortions there.  

All perfectly legal in civil courts, but seem to rub a lot of Catholics the wrong way.  

 

I really don't think some guy in some "think tank" somewhere is the go-to guy for answers.  I'm thinking a lot of Catholics feel there are courts that are higher than even the Papal See in Rome.

[David CO]

I believe that CalicoPenn in incorrect when he states that Charles Wilson or The St. Joseph Foundation is the Catholic Church's own canon law think tank.

 

I don't believe Charles Wilson is a canon lawyer or holds any position of authority from the Catholic Church. 

[Peregrinator]

The Saint Joseph Foundation does good work, but it's true that Charles Wilson is not a canon lawyer (though there are canon lawyers who are on the foundation staff or who act as consultants). That said, I'm wondering if he was actually quoted accurately.

[moosetracker]

I have been reading this interaction about civil law and cannon law for a page or two.. I guess, I am totally confused about the debate, it must be more then the fact that courts can put a dispute with the Catholic Church on trial, and consider the Catholic church in the wrong and liable whether monetarily or with prison time..   Many of the child molestations by catholic priests and the cover up, where all done in civil court and Catholic church ended up paying a ton of dough for their actions, and several priest wound up with jail time.. Catholic Church has done ALOT to change their process to make sure they now comply with the legalities that is required for youth protection.. This shows that Catholic churches are definitely not of the view they are above the law (they might have thought so, but not anymore)...  Also courts have presided on things like the school employee who was fired for using in vitro insemination.. The court found the catholic church in the wrong.. Many court cases upheld the churches stance, but others did not.. 

 

Clearly you guys are arguing on a different plane, that I am not comprehending.. Could you explain?

[Peregrinator]

@@moosetracker, the issues involved are complex and there is a lot of history behind them -- plus you will find many contemporary Catholics don't agree with one another on this topic.

[David CO]

Catholic Canon Law is a very interesting topic, but I think we are straying a little bit too far from this topic, which is the Lutheran Church reaction to the policy change.

 

Perhaps this discussion of Catholic Canon Law would be more appropriate under the other two topics about the Catholic reaction?

 

Does the Lutheran Church have an equivalent to Canon Law?

Edited August 8, 2015 by David CO

[Stosh]

Catholic Canon Law is a very interesting topic, but I think we are straying a little bit too far from this topic, which is the Lutheran Church reaction to the policy change.

 

Perhaps this discussion of Catholic Canon Law would be more appropriate under the other two topics about the Catholic reaction?

 

Does the Lutheran Church have an equivalent to Canon Law?

 

Yep, it's the Scriptures as written. 

[skeptic]

And any of this has what to do with the BSA and their leadership decision?  IF the CO is a religious organization with certain beliefs, they can adhere to them.  Do not see how Canon law, or whatever has much to do with it.  This thread started out about Lutherans.  

[Stosh]

I think the gist of the issue is whether the King holds the stirrup for the Pope or the Pope holds the stirrup of the King.  And for those who don't understand that, Do the religious tenets hold sway over the governmental code or vice versa?   This debate has raged on for quite some time now and shows no let up any time soon.  

 

So, getting back on topic... for Lutherans, the Bible is the ultimate statement of morality and civil law needs to comply with it and it is inappropriate for followers to accept laws contrary to the teaching of Scripture.  Where one sees this generally is in countries ruled by tyranny and greed and subsequent push back becomes necessary.  Detrich Bonhoeffer (Lutheran Theologian) was hanged by the Third Reich for being part of the conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.  

 

While I have no crystal ball to tell me where that tipping point may be in America, I do think in a sense BSA has found it for this issue of homosexual acceptance.  While I don't think anyone is in any danger of assassination, I do think an exodus of sorts may soon be quite evident.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Stosh

[CalicoPenn]

The Saint Joseph Foundation does good work, but it's true that Charles Wilson is not a canon lawyer (though there are canon lawyers who are on the foundation staff or who act as consultants). That said, I'm wondering if he was actually quoted accurately.

 

It's a direct quote from an article in the Boston Globe which was exploring how much influence canon law had in civil courts.  If he wasn't quoted correctly, that is something for the Boston Globe to answer for.

[Peregrinator]

It's a direct quote from an article in the Boston Globe which was exploring how much influence canon law had in civil courts.  If he wasn't quoted correctly, that is something for the Boston Globe to answer for.

It never occurred to me that an inaccurate quote would have been anyone's fault but the Boston Globe's.

[DeaconLance]

Right, the NCCS doesn't have the authority to state the Church's position -- any opinion that they offer must be understood as a private opinion. To the best of my knowledge they don't even have any episcopal oversight.

The NCCS does have episcopal oversight and they are the official representation of the USCCB to the BSA. They do have the authority to state the Church's position as it is the only position they have. The bishops give them their position. Now the USCCB is large and individual bishops may not agree with the majority position and opt to disassociate their parishes from chartering units as we see in North Dakota. As long as the BSA honors its position to allow Catholic COs to choose leaders according to Church teaching I don't see any problem.

 

Deacon Lance

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

When the government tries to force a religious community to do a religious marriage for someone they do not deem appropriate is where the government needs to seriously mind it's own business and butt out.  

 

Luckily the government has never done this.

[Peregrinator]

The NCCS does have episcopal oversight and they are the official representation of the USCCB to the BSA. They do have the authority to state the Church's position as it is the only position they have. The bishops give them their position. Now the USCCB is large and individual bishops may not agree with the majority position and opt to disassociate their parishes from chartering units as we see in North Dakota. As long as the BSA honors its position to allow Catholic COs to choose leaders according to Church teaching I don't see any problem.

Reverend Deacon Lance,

 

Thank you for the correction regarding the NCCS. I do think they confuse things by referring to Bp. Guglielmone as their "episcopal liaison" instead of "episcopal adviser."

 

When I say that the NCCS doesn't have authority to state the Church's position, I mean that they speak for themselves and not for the Church. Only the Pope and the bishops in communion with him have the authority to speak for the Church. And clearly the position of the NCCS is not the only position a Catholic might have.