Vatican Scouts?

[CalicoPenn]

It was one guy with a proposal, nothing more.

 

I guess he's changed his proposal

[Peregrinator]

I guess he's changed his proposal

I think just about anyone could have seen that the proposal wouldn't work. What he proposed was establishing a separate association for Catholics that would license the program from the BSA.

[Stosh]

It's father-son camping, not scouting.

 

Could be, but the dad as mentor/role model for their son isn't such a bad idea.  It improves and strengthens the father position in the family while showing young boys how to grow up to be such community builders for their family and friends.  The course of today's society pretty much negates the role of the male and females can raise both sex children without a male influence.  This we see the problems with our culture deepening.  Programs like this might go a long way to stem the tide and using an outdoor experience is a nice touch.  Makes for a nice retreat setting for the emphasis of the program.

[Peregrinator]

Could be, but the dad as mentor/role model for their son isn't such a bad idea.  It improves and strengthens the father position in the family while showing young boys how to grow up to be such community builders for their family and friends.

Oh, there's no "could be" about it. They explicitly describe themselves as a father-son outdoors apostolate. Of course there is nothing wrong with that, but it isn't scouting. How can a boy learn to lead if dad is always around (and being Dad rather than being a scout leader)? And, of course, the model excludes sons of single women, whose need for male role models is probably greater than most, as well as men without sons who might otherwise be good mentors.

[JoeBob]

They explicitly describe themselves as a father-son outdoors apostolate. Of course there is nothing wrong with that, but it isn't scouting.

You seem to think that calling an activity 'Scouting' makes it good.  Prove it?

 

How can a boy learn to lead if dad is always around (and being Dad rather than being a scout leader)?

So, you're saying that Dads cannot teach or model leadership.  Where did leaders come from before BSA existed?

 

And, of course, the model excludes sons of single women, whose need for male role models is probably greater than most, as well as men without sons who might otherwise be good mentors.

Not the target audience for Catholics, eh?

[Stosh]

I'm a little on JoeBob's side as to how did men teach their sons to be men before BSA came along.  I think that as an alternative to BSA this program sounds like it would be pretty good within the structure of the Catholic Church in America.  The Church recognizes the need for strong male models and what better person than a son's father to show him the way.  It strengthens the marriage with a strong male partner and the children grow up watching a relationship every day, not just at a once a week meeting and a monthly outing with men who are not necessarily their fathers.  I'm thinking a father can have more positive influence on a son than most SM's out there and will offer a better understanding of what it means to be a man in our world today than what a female SM could ever dream of offering him.  Being a father is not something one gets by achieving rank in the BSA program.  Just because you're an Eagle doesn't mean anything when it comes to being a great dad.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stosh

[Peregrinator]

You seem to think that calling an activity 'Scouting' makes it good.  Prove it?

No, I don't think that calling an activity "scouting" makes it good, I think that scouting is good. And (if we're going to play the Catholic card) I can cite plenty of statements from multiple Popes to that effect.

[Stosh]

No one says scouting is all that bad, but to make the comment that the Catholic program is JUST a father/son camping program pretty much makes it sound like it's a bad thing.  I think any time father/sons do things together it is far better for the boys' development than learning to tie knots and sit through Citizenship MB classes.

 

TrallLifeUSA with it's emphasis on religion, this Catholic program with it's emphasis on father/son time, and yes co-ed youth ministry programs are all excellent competition to the BSA with certain things they do that can out-compete with the watered down "adventures" and prestigious accolades only a very small percentage ever acquire which the BSA provides.

 

BSA is a good program, but it has a long way to go to being the excellent program it used to be.

[Peregrinator]

No one says scouting is all that bad, but to make the comment that the Catholic program is JUST a father/son camping program pretty much makes it sound like it's a bad thing.  I think any time father/sons do things together it is far better for the boys' development than learning to tie knots and sit through Citizenship MB classes.

I explicitly said there was nothing wrong with a father-son camping program. I pointed out that it isn't scouting. It's not, as far as I know, an insult to say that something isn't scouting. The reason for pointing out the non-scouting nature of Troops of St. George is because this is a scouting forum. Sure, there are probably better things one could do with one's time than sit through a merit badge class. That's a reason to get rid of merit badge classes, not to get rid of scouting entirely in favor of family camping.

[Stosh]

And without knowing the full extent of the programming, I would find it difficult to know whether it was "scouting" or not.  There's a lot that BSA does that I wouldn't count as "scouting" too.  

[Peregrinator]

And without knowing the full extent of the programming, I would find it difficult to know whether it was "scouting" or not.  There's a lot that BSA does that I wouldn't count as "scouting" too.  

Well, a scouting program starts with the Promise and the Law, right? And if either of those things is absent, we can tell right away that a particular program isn't scouting. Assuming they're both present, we can move on to things like the four aims, the patrol method, etc.

[Stosh]

 

 

IF... and that's a big IF, units did follow the aims and methods of scouting, it may very well be described as "scouting", but most  troops I have come in contact with appear to be run no differently than any other youth program out there where the adults do the actual leading.  Those units are called scouting and yet don't make it into the criteria you mention.  

 

Well, when I was in the ministry, my youth group would spend a week in "camp" at a state park somewhere and would focus on a retreat concept of prayer and Bible study.  We did the orienteering stuff, the swimming, canoeing, etc. a lot of what is done by any other outdoor program and had a lot of dynamics found in a lot of scouting units of today.  Scout Oath (baptismal convenant), Law (religious ethics), and such gave the same kind of structural continuity as a scout unit.  About the the only real difference was the uniforms and the fact that the participants didn't need to hunt up camping equipment to go.  Bible Camps have been just as popular over the years for years as Boy and Girl Scout camps.  They both meet the need for an outdoor adventure experience for the youth.

[Peregrinator]

Those units are called scouting and yet don't make it into the criteria you mention.

At least they aspire to be scouting, however. Troops of St. George do not have that aspiration. (And again, I am not saying that to be insulting.)

[Stosh]

Maybe they just aspire to be Godly men of character for our society as a whole and to lead young men into an adulthood of faith charity and concern for others around them.  There are others out there who aspire to greatness based on their religion, not on a set of rules set up by an independent program promoted by people who like the outdoors.

 

I don't think Mother Theresa was ever a Girl Scout and I don't think any of the popes were ever in Boy Scouts from any country.  Most the men who walked on the moon were Eagle scouts.... but not all.  We've had a lot of good presidents along the way, not all were in Scouting.

 

Scouting, even in it's ideal state, is not the be-all, end-all of character and leadership programs.  Others out there have done just as good if not better.

[Peregrinator]

Maybe they just aspire to be Godly men of character for our society as a whole and to lead young men into an adulthood of faith charity and concern for others around them.  There are others out there who aspire to greatness based on their religion, not on a set of rules set up by an independent program promoted by people who like the outdoors.

 

I don't think Mother Theresa was ever a Girl Scout and I don't think any of the popes were ever in Boy Scouts from any country.  Most the men who walked on the moon were Eagle scouts.... but not all.  We've had a lot of good presidents along the way, not all were in Scouting.

 

Scouting, even in it's ideal state, is not the be-all, end-all of character and leadership programs.  Others out there have done just as good if not better.

You keep reading stuff into my responses that isn't there.