Gone Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Of course @@DenLeader2 is dumping on BSA. You commented in the other thread that Trail Life's increases aren't commensurate with BSA's decreases. Well, here's a cub-aged program to also divert scouts. Yet. Of course since it is Christian-based it's a different membership base to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 From the OP link, I can understand LDS being upset with this vote scheduled in July. Wasn't this originally planned for October? I can understand LDS concern about the limited global reach of Scouting in terms of common means to serve all LDS youth but that has nothing to do with this decision. I cannot understand why they think this decision changes their use of the BSA program, unless they are concerned that gay LDS adults will volunteer as scout leaders in other non-LDS units? There was a storm last night. The sun came up today, trail conditions are fair with slippery footing. We are heading out. My $0.02 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DenLeader2 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Gentleman, I'm not dumping on BSA. Putting accurate information out there about RAs. Some members on this board may not have any knowledge of this organization. I mentioned that RAs is NOT an alternative to BSA. It is older than BSA and is a beneficial organization on its own merits and goals. If a Catholic boy wants to join an RA Chapter then that is possible and ok. The one thing I would tell any parent joining an RA Chapter is the boys will be taught about missions (taking what the Bible says about salvation to people of the World) and being a missionary from the Bible. We wouldn't beat kids over the head about doctrine just share stories about missions. The program also involves physical fitness, sports, outings for fun and camp craft. I've never talked about Trail Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @@RememberSchiff I suspect since they are the largest bid in the nest they're ticked this came up when they were out and not when BSA promised. Seems like fishy timing....almost as if it were planned. I'd expect them to split or something else monumentous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @@RememberSchiff I suspect since they are the largest bid in the nest they're ticked this came up when they were out and not when BSA promised. Seems like fishy timing....almost as if it were planned. I'd expect them to split or something else monumentous. Could be. If so, what would you offer them if anything? Maybe another separate scouting program like STEM scouts or Learning for Life? Would you play legal hardball about using BSA uniforms and materials in a non-BSA program? Would you give them a deal on some scout camps? If I can refrain from drinking coffee while attending LDS hosted Roundtables , I think a workable solution can be found as both parties and scouts stand to loose more with a separation. ANother $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Could be. If so, what would you offer them if anything? Maybe another separate scouting program like STEM scouts or Learning for Life? Would you play legal hardball about using BSA uniforms and materials in a non-BSA program? Would you give them a deal on some scout camps? If I can refrain from drinking coffee while attending LDS hosted Roundtables , I think a workable solution can be found as both parties and scouts stand to loose more with a separation. ANother $0.02 If *I* were BSA membership chair? I'd offer them the same program but on their terms...because that's what my advisory board said they'd support yesterday. If BSA means what they say then they should allow the LDS units to separate out, have their own rules and still use the BSA program. That way I can claim their numbers and still have visibility in to their program. That's assuming the LDS folks aren't so ticked off over how BSA handled this situation they don't outright start their own program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 If *I* were BSA membership chair? I'd offer them the same program but on their terms...because that's what my advisory board said they'd support yesterday. If BSA means what they say then they should allow the LDS units to separate out, have their own rules and still use the BSA program. That way I can claim their numbers and still have visibility in to their program. That's assuming the LDS folks aren't so ticked off over how BSA handled this situation they don't outright start their own program. Well too bad you are not the BSA membership chair. Given LDS calls to protect "religious freedom" and some LGBT rights, I think your offer is on track. What if they insist that LDS adults can only volunteer in Scouting if called by a LDS unit (sorry if I got the nomenclature wrong)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I know next to nothing about LDS scouting but I was under the impression that that was how it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fehler Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I also think its a stretch to believe that 100% of current LDS members/units will cease to exist if the LDS pulls out. A sizable portion will convert to standard Packs/Troops with a different chartering organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) I don't know much about LDS scouting either, so, FWIW, http://www.ldsbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/35814_scout-handbook_eng.pdf. I thought the document made it fairly clear that scouting is an adjunct to the Priesthood programs of the church. Here's one of the opening paragraphs that seems to support that: Scouting can help young men and boys enhance close relationships with their families and the Church while developing strong and desirable traits of character, citizenship, and physical and mental fitness. Under priesthood leadership, Scouting can complement the efforts of Aaronic Priesthood quorums and Primary classes in building testimonies in young men and boys. Scouting under Church sponsorship should become an extension of the home, Primary classes, and Aaronic Priesthood quorums. Scouting functions as part of the Church’s activity program for boys and young men. Section 5 of the document describes the operation of the 12 - 14 YO Boy Scout Troop. I suspect the BSA needs the LDS much more than the LDS needs the BSA. Edited July 28, 2015 by walk in the woods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well too bad you are not the BSA membership chair. Given LDS calls to protect "religious freedom" and some LGBT rights, I think your offer is on track. What if they insist that LDS adults can only volunteer in Scouting if called by a LDS unit (sorry if I got the nomenclature wrong)? It will be an interesting debate, indeed, within the Mormon church. I know next to nothing about LDS scouting but I was under the impression that that was how it is now. Not from My experience. We have a few LDS folks (kids and adults) in our non-LDS unit. They prefer a more traditional BSA-style unit and program. The are "strongly encouraged" to go LDS but to my knowledge they are not excommunicated if they do. I also think its a stretch to believe that 100% of current LDS members/units will cease to exist if the LDS pulls out. A sizable portion will convert to standard Packs/Troops with a different chartering organization. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think the LDS units will go bye-bye. I see a few scenarios actually. One is that the LDS units stay put (in BSA) but they all go with restricted membership. Another could be they split BUT somehow get BSA to license back to them the whole program just marketed a bit for the LDS church. A third could be they go away and form their own scouting group. A fourth could be they negotiate their own version of Trail Life. There are other options and permutations to be sure. If I was the TLUSA head I'd be on a plane to Utah right now to negotiate a move of the LDS Scouts to my program. I'd give direct cross-over credit to all LDS scouts and offer the LDS church anything they wanted to make the move (e.g., seat on the board, their own program, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 If I was the TLUSA head I'd be on a plane to Utah right now to negotiate a move of the LDS Scouts to my program. I'd give direct cross-over credit to all LDS scouts and offer the LDS church anything they wanted to make the move (e.g., seat on the board, their own program, etc.). TLUSA excludes LDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Why do they exclude LDS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 TLUSA excludes LDS Is that stated by the organization somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Last I knew, they would happily accept LDS youth, but LDS adults could not be leaders... They don't consider them true Christians because they don't believe in the holy trinity, there was mention of them following not only the Bible but also the "Book of Mormons" that make them not true Christians.. Trails life will take youth from all denominations but they will only accept true Christians as Adult Leaders.. A forum I visited on this subject had an LDS mother on the forum wanting to change to TL, but upset and not understanding the fact that they did not see her religion as Christian.. The contempt for the poor lady by the members of TL was surprising.. I would think if the women was at all open minded on the subject, she should have walked away having experienced what it is like for homosexuals after walking a mile in their shoes. Do I know where the official rule is? No.. But there was enough buzz on forums around it, and I believe at the time the official rules where presented in the forum, that I know that this statement is true. Edited July 28, 2015 by moosetracker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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