fred johnson Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I agree with walkinthewoods. We need to stop focusing on Trail Life. They are one of many other outdoor organizations: 4H, Campfire, Awana, Service brigades, caravan, squires, adventure corps, etc. Not to mention YMCA is gearing up their camp opportunities. BSA has one huge advantage with the Eagle rank and with the annual elementary school recruiting effort (or what is left of it). Girls is somewhat close with "Gold" though many do not understand it or value it as much. Not saying it's less. Just saying the branding is less. Beyond Eagle scout (and Gold) the rest of the advancement programs are just really titles within their program. They do not hold the universal label or value or advantage of the Eagle rank label. I doubt they ever will. We as volunteers need to focus as much as possible on the value of the Eagle rank and the BSA program. And not worry about Trail Life or other programs. They have always existed and always will. Edited August 7, 2015 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The vast majority of scouts do not get Eagle. If that was the goal of scouting, we have, year after year, been abject failures with the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) The vast majority of scouts do not get Eagle. If that was the goal of scouting, we have, year after year, been abject failures with the program. That's moot. It's like saying health clubs are failures because the vast majority of people who belong to health clubs are out of shape. It's about branding and the value people place on that brand. Whether or not the scout achieves it, the Eagle rank is arguably the best known, best understood and most valued award from all youth organizations. I doubt another organization ... or even BSA ... will ever create another such strongly branded asset. Edited August 7, 2015 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 A diploma from an Ivy League school will do it too. And according to the proposed logic, if only 5% of the Ivy League schools' students graduate, it makes those diplomas even more valuable? It's my opinion that with a graduation rate of 5% one has to seriously wonder about the quality of the school's program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 A diploma from an Ivy League school will do it too. And according to the proposed logic, if only 5% of the Ivy League schools' students graduate, it makes those diplomas even more valuable? It's my opinion that with a graduation rate of 5% one has to seriously wonder about the quality of the school's program. You're just argumentative aren't you and you like distracting nonsequitur tangents. ... said with a chuckle ... Have a good weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The vast majority of scouts do not get Eagle. If that was the goal of scouting, we have, year after year, been abject failures with the program. I have to agree with Stosh on this one. While @@fred johnson is correct that Eagle is a valuable "brand", I think focusing on it too much is part of the reason we have so many Eagle and MB mills in the BSA. Success is defined as "getting the rank" or "getting the badge". And that is resulting in a weakened BSA program. Putting an even greater emphases on Eagle, will just make the problems worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I have to agree with Stosh on this one. While @@fred johnson is correct that Eagle is a valuable "brand", I think focusing on it too much is part of the reason we have so many Eagle and MB mills in the BSA. Success is defined as "getting the rank" or "getting the badge". And that is resulting in a weakened BSA program. Putting an even greater emphases on Eagle, will just make the problems worse. Sadly agree. Not sure why the comment is necessary, but BSA's Eagle rank brand success opens up this thread for the continual nonsequitur shriveled worn-out dry tangent of the Eagle mill. That's why there should always be another DIFFERENT discussion on how to improve the quality of the BSA program. With the Eagle mill point, like a vampire hunting in the dark for a fresh victim's blood, I now regret commenting on this thread. Okay. I'm tired. I surrender. Edited August 7, 2015 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Too much of a good thing isn't good either. While I have experienced some fantastic Eagle Scouts in the program, I have also experienced some fantastic Never-got-past-second-class Scouts, too. I don't think the emphasis should be on the rank as much as the quality of the program. Pencil whipping the T-FC, MB mills, over emphasis on advancement, etc. often detract rather than enhance the program. Then there are the make-it-up-as-you-go types of leaders that really take the wind out of the program. "Next month we'll be doing a canoe paddle around Little Puddle Lake and all the boys that are 15 years old, have Swimming, Life Saving, Canoeing, First Aid MB's, and are part of the Honor Patrol are encouraged to sign up." Okay, that's a stretch, but I've seen some troops come pretty close. We seem to be over emphasizing the Eagle issue to the point where we lose track of the Outdoors, the adventure, the character development, the independence and simply growing up to be a man of honor, gets lost in the hoopla. The reason I tend to rattle people's chain like @@fred johnson 's is not because I'm anti-Eagle, it's because I want all those Eagles, and Lifers, and Stars to have something of quality when they move on to other things in life. I want them to be able to feel comfortable taking their family camping, fishing, teaching their sons how to hunt and hike. I don't want them to think that woodland flowers are not important enough to stop and enjoy on a hike or to sit and watch a beaver and family build a dam. It's because of this when I hear, Mom and Dad helped me get my Eagle so I can put it on my college app and business resume, that it kinda rubs me the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 While I have experienced some fantastic Eagle Scouts in the program, I have also experienced some fantastic Never-got-past-second-class Scouts, too. I don't think the emphasis should be on the rank as much as the quality of the program. We seem to be over emphasizing the Eagle issue to the point where we lose track of the Outdoors, the adventure, the character development, the independence and simply growing up to be a man of honor, gets lost in the hoopla. The reason I tend to rattle people's chain like @@fred johnson 's is not because I'm anti-Eagle, it's because I want all those Eagles, and Lifers, and Stars to have something of quality when they move on to other things in life. I want them to be able to feel comfortable taking their family camping, fishing, teaching their sons how to hunt and hike. I don't want them to think that woodland flowers are not important enough to stop and enjoy on a hike or to sit and watch a beaver and family build a dam. It's because of this when I hear, Mom and Dad helped me get my Eagle so I can put it on my college app and business resume, that it kinda rubs me the wrong way. I just quoted the less inflammatory parts. Another way of saying this is the Eagle brand has become so strong that there's pressure to cut corners. Everyone wants it and they don't see the rest. They just see a bunch of check boxes. I agree with Fred (I think) that this isn't the scouts' fault so we shouldn't give them grief, but we should prevent adults from cutting corners. I really agree with Stosh's point that the scouts are getting ripped off by adults cutting those corners. Unfortunately this is also hurting the whole program because there are plenty of kids that know junk when they see it and will just walk away. The challenge for the BSA is to explain that Eagle is more than just check boxes and patches. I talk to my scouts and nobody brags to their non-scout friends about what merit badges they completed, the brag about high adventure trips, challenging campouts, and even service projects. I just had a PL send me a letter he got from someone his patrol did a service project for. That's the brand the kids look up to. I talk to scouts about who they used to look up to when they were little scouts and tell them now it's their turn. They understand that. That's what the BSA should be working on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Colleges are savvy enough to look beyond any particular award. Most employers are too. Reminding parents of that would be a good idea. Especially if someone tells you hey are "hanging on" until their boy makes Eagle. Those are folks who I wouldn't hesitate to refer to the local TL chapter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 It can be helpful when one is enlisting in the military. Which is probably at least part of the reason that the BSA is viewed by some as a public accommodation rather than a private association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2015/catholic-leaders-not-ready-to-quit-boy-scouts-over-gay-leaders-decision.cfm "Russell Moore, president of the denomination's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, predicted an even greater exodus of Baptists from the Scouts, and expressed skepticism the Scouts would hold the line on protecting the rights of churches and other religious institutions. "At every point, the Scout leadership tells us that they will go this far and no farther, but here we are again -- so it's hard for me to believe, in the long term, that the Boy Scouts will allow religious groups to have the freedom to choose their own leaders," Moore told Baptist Press July 14. "In recent years I have seen a definite cooling on the part of Baptist churches toward the Scouts. This will probably bring that cooling to a freeze." Trustworthy? Not by my definition. Edited August 8, 2015 by JoeBob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I wish these folks would stop threatening to leave and just leave already if that's what they want - they would have had to been blind not to notice the handwriting on the wall two years ago so it shouldn't have been that big of a surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Not to worry, they will be leaving, and it might be kinda important to BSA to know why. I don't think BSA thought this one through very well, and telling people to shut up and leave really is an appropriate suggestion to be making. It lacks a certain veneer of friendliness and courtesy. After all you are talking about a cadre of people who have been more than loyal to a program that has been waning for years now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Not to worry, they will be leaving, and it might be kinda important to BSA to know why. I don't think BSA thought this one through very well, and telling people to shut up and leave really is an appropriate suggestion to be making. It lacks a certain veneer of friendliness and courtesy. After all you are talking about a cadre of people who have been more than loyal to a program that has been waning for years now. Hmmm, maybe those opposing the policy should have told those supporting it to "shut up and leave". Did not hear much of that happen, did we? Edited August 9, 2015 by Bad Wolf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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