Scout Sunday Flag Protocol

[PETAL_MS_SCOUTER]

Our troop is preparing for Scout Sunday. We may do a flag presentation. We normally do a crossover before posting the colors. Wanted to confirm the US flag proceeds before the church (Christian)flag.

[Bob White]

If done in this country yes.

[Sturgen]

The Flag of the United States of America ALWAYS proceeds any other flag when on US owned or occupied soil. It may be "joined" by another state, national, or military flag directly to its side or behind it. Please also note that the US flag needs to be to the presentors left (audiences right) and at an equal or greater hight then any other flagwhen placed on display

[Bob White]

"Please also note that the US flag needs to be to the presentors left (audiences right) and at an equal or greater hight then any other flagwhen placed on display"

 

This is true in some cases and not true in others.

 

This is one of those cases where, for clarity's sake, we should consider sticking to the original question. Does the American Flag cross in front of the church flag? Yes, I'm confident it does on US soil.

 

Why US soil? Because it is the USA rules regarding the USA flag. In other countries, their rules would take priority.

 

If we are to discuss other flag rules may I suggest we use a separate thread so that we do not overwhelm Petal.

 

 

 

 

[acco40]

Section (k) of the flag code states:

 

When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.

 

A few other notes: the President of the United States can do what he pleases with respect to the flag.

 

Now for my question: Having Scouts in uniform recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag violate the "Flag Code?"

 

P.S. Out of respect for those whose "designated" Sabbath is not Sunday, please refer to Scout Sabbath and not Scout Sunday.

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[dan]

PETAL_MS_SCOUTER

Make sure that you check this out your church. Some Lutherans have a rule that no flags except the church flag can be on display within the sanctuary. I asked our pastor about this (because there is one in the sanctuary) he just smiled.

 

acco40

Having Scouts in uniform recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag violate the "Flag Code?"

I say only if the flag bearers recite and or salute the flag during the pledge.

[Bob White]

Acco, it depends on whether the speaker is situated on the same level of the audience or on a platform, and whether the flags are on the floor level or the riser level.

 

Could you restate your question so that it asks a question?

[Adrianvs]

"P.S. Out of respect for those whose 'designated' Sabbath is not Sunday, please refer to Scout Sabbath and not Scout Sunday."

 

The term "Sabbath" is a specific term as "Lord's Day" or "Pentecost" or "All Souls Day." It isn't any more ecumenical than stating "Sunday." It refers to the Jewish day of religous observance of Saturday. While some Christians consider the Sabbath moved to Sunday, the "big guns" recognize that the Sabbath remains Saturday and that the day of religious observance has been moved to the day of Resurrection (Sunday). The point is that "Sabbath" is as exclusive and specific as "Sunday." Either can be used metaphorically, of course. One might refer to Yom Kippur as "the Jewish Good Friday," or Sunday as "the Christian Sabbath," but neither is preferable. Saying "Scout Sabbath" is no better or worse than saying "Scout Sunday." It fits nicely for Jews, and some Christians, I suppose, but the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bah'ai, etc. don't really see any difference.

[matuawarrior]

So does that mean the U.S. Flag precedes the Christian Flag (Protestant or Catholic)or any other denominational faith?

 

I feel this should be left up to the Church where the event is taking place. With respect to the Flag Code, I feel God is Superior and His flag regardless of faith or denomination should be to the right of the U.S. flag. But as I said, I would ask the local Church Officials regarding their protocol where the event is taking place.

 

Matua

[acco40]

Sorry for the grammatically impaired previous post:

 

Now for my question: Having Scouts in uniform recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag; does it violate the "Flag Code?"

 

One of the reasons for debate with respect to the flag code is the meaning of the "while in uniform." Does it refer to members of the military (no not just US Army, but all armed services, yes even the Air Force) only or does it include Scouts in their field uniforms? My interpretation is that is does include Scouts and Scouters in their field uniform.

 

 

 

[Adrianvs]

Matua,

 

I agree that the religous institution in question should be allowed to give its own flag precedence over the national flag. The issue here is that the institution is asking the Boy Scouts to carry out a flag procession. Since the policy of the BSA is to follow the US Flag Code, it seems that the troop should be acting in accord with the code. If this may be a problem with the institution, I think that someone should be notified ahead of time. Perhaps individual scouts of the local community in question could perform the flag ceremony to the religious institution's liking.

 

I am unsure about the policies regarding the Protestant flag (white flag with red Latin cross on blue field), but I have seen it posted with the American flag having prominence. Regarding the Papal flag, the Knights of Columbus can be considered the official color guard of the Church in the Americas. The following is from the organization's protocol:

 

"The U.S. Flag Code as approved by Congress and signed by President Ford on July 7, 1976, should be strictly adhered to (Public Law No. 94-344)...The precedence of flags shall be U.S., Papal, State and Order."

 

While this may seem counterintuitive, especially given the international nature of the Church, it must be remembered that the papal flag is not a primary symbol of the Church or religion. In practice, the flags usually lead the procession and then part to the sides as the liturgical procession begins. While the knights simply followed the colors into the nave, they will usually remain along the central aisle and salute the liturgical procession. While this is not strictly relevant to scouting color guards, it does demonstrate that it is the processional symbols (including processional crucifix), and not the papal flag which represent the sovereignty of God and His Church. It is also recommended that the flags are not posted in the sanctuary itself, but in the nave (main body) or vestibule. If the flags are being carried to the front of the church, then they could simply be posted on the "ground level" of the nave and not in the sanctuary which is usually raised. There is no official policy on this matter, however, so it should be left to the discression of the pastor and bishop.

 

I know that some synagogues use the Israeli flag. Whether this is primarily as a symbol of the religion or in solidarity with the nation, I am not sure. It should also be noted that the Papal and Israeli flags are recognized national flags and should not be posted below the American flag on a pole. This is unlikely to be an issue during a religous service, but perhaps an outdoor one..?

 

 

I found an interesting point in Section 7e of the Flag Code:

 

"No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy."

 

While having a church flag proceed before an American flag during a service is not allowed specifically, it would seem within the same vein as the above situation. I wonder if the national flag status of the Papal or Israeli flags would affect their ability to be flown in the "Navy exception" above.

[matuawarrior]

Adrainvs,

 

Thanks for the info. We had a situation here a couple years back with my home Church regarding the same issue discussed here. The military church members stated that the US Flag should have precedence as per the Flag Code. I sided with them since I am a veteran.

 

I have seen it both ways as well. Our discussion was not intense but it did bring about a question as to who we prioritize first in our lives. In the end, We decided to let the Church Leaders decide.

 

I agree that the Scouts should follow the Flag Code unless otherwise directed by the institution's Pastor.

 

I did not know that the Papal Flag is considered a national color. I knew the Israeli Flag was both national and religious.

 

Matua

[Bob58]

Am I missing someting or is the aisle not wide enough for the US & Church flags to process together? (For some reason that seems to simple but we present the Us, Papal & 40 other national flags every Thanksgiving they go up the aisle 2 by 2 w/ the US & Papal first, all are posted together when the last arrives in place.)

[Adrianvs]

"Am I missing someting or is the aisle not wide enough for the US & Church flags to process together?"

 

If I am not mistaken, the flag on the right of the bearers during procession would be in prominence. That is why having the flags cross is necessary if they are to be posted on a raised level (thus having their positions reversed). If the flags are to be posted on the same level as the "audience," it seems that they would not cross. In Catholic churches, the bishops' liturgical committee recommends that the flags are not posted in the sanctuary (usually raised), so a crossing would not be necessary.