Update On Adult Leadership Standards

[David CO]

Eagle77,

 

Are you talking about respect or courtesy?

 

Respect is no longer something members of BSA can expect of each other. The policy change has seen to that.

 

The very most gay inclusive units have the right to expect is courtesy, and even that will be given grudgingly.

[T2Eagle]

The 12th point of the Scout Law: A scout is Reverent ... a scout respects the BELIEFS of others.

[David CO]

Nobody, so far, no one has mentioned the Order of the Arrow. Is the OA going to be inclusive?

 

As I've said in earlier posts, my unit doesn't do OA. Some OA supporters have, in the past, tried unsuccessfully to make me see the error of my ways. Thank God I didn't listen to them! What a mess this is going to be!

 

Of course, church-owned units can cease running elections for OA, but what of existing members? Can a church-owned unit remove their boys from OA?

 

We have discussed how this policy will effect the general membership, but what about OA?

Edited July 22, 2015 by David CO

[TAHAWK]

Why would they get sued?  People have to have grounds for a lawsuit, and suing just to punish someone is illegal.

"]United States ex rel. Gerald Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.D. 282 (W.D.Pa. 1971)

 

'WEBER, District Judge.

 Plaintiff, alleging jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 241, 28 U.S.C. § 1343, and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 prays for leave to file a complaint for violation of his civil rights in forma pauperis. He alleges that Satan has on numerous occasions caused plaintiff misery and unwarranted threats, against the will of plaintiff, that Satan has placed deliberate obstacles in his path and has caused plaintiff’s downfall.  

 

Plaintiff alleges that by reason of these acts Satan has deprived him of his constitutional rights.'"

 

Anyone can, and probably has, been sued for anything.  Can there be consequences?  Yes, but not often enough or severe enough to stop the filing of baseless suits.

 

The telephone company in Ohio was once sued for $30,000,000.00 for interrupting telephone service to a customer for thirteen seconds, (A house was being moved down the street pursuant to a municipal permit and the wires to the customer [Yes, that long ago.] were disconnected and reconnected to an alternative route in order to allow the house to be moved.  A Catholic Order sold house to the new owner moving it, and they were also defendants.)  The trial judge refused to dismiss any defendants from the case.)

[Rick_in_CA]

Do you believe that all religions deserve equal respect? I don't.

 

The history and tradition of my religion is not one of according equal respect to all religions, historical or current.

 

Did we accord equal respect to the worshipers of Baal, designers of the golden calf, the practitioners of witchcraft, or the residents of Sodom? No. Certainly not.

 

In our Sunday School classes, we teach that the practitioners of these religious beliefs were evil. No equal respect. No mincing of words. No beating around the bush. They were evil.

 

Why would Rick, or anyone else, be surprised that traditional religious conservatives do not accept the concept of religious equality. Religious freedom, yes. Religious equality, no.

So what does the BSA say about respecting other religions?

 

In the Bylaws of the BSA we get this:

 

ARTICLE IX. POLICIES AND DEFINITIONS,

 

Clause 1 (the DRP) contains this:

The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training.

Clause 2 says this:

The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, “Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.â€

Now the Guide to Advancement contains this in Section 5.0.5.0 Religious Principles contains this:

The Boy Scouts of America does not define what constitutes belief in God or practice of religion. Neither does the BSA require membership in a religious organization or association for membership in the movement. If a Scout does not belong to a religious organization or association, then his parent(s) or guardian(s) will be considered responsible for his religious training. All that is required is the acknowledgment of belief in God as stated in the Scout Oath, and the ability to be reverent as stated in the Scout Law.

And of course the Scout Law contains this bit:

Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

All the bold emphases in the quotes above are mine.

 

Note, nowhere does it say "respect the beliefs of others as long as you agree with them".

 

Now I ask you @@David CO, since you so strongly disagree with what is a fundamental BSA value (respecting the beliefs of others), why are you in the BSA?

Edited July 22, 2015 by Rick_in_CA

[Stosh]

But what if I join the "All Colors Club" which states that "showing respect for people who like any and or all colors is a fundamental value of the ACC", and the ACC teaches it's members that "it's important to show respect to everyone no matter what color they prefer". But after I have joined, I discover that a subset of the members of the ACC say "if you like purple we don't like you and don't want you here". Wouldn't it be appropriate for me to point out that just because I like purple doesn't mean I should be unwelcome? And in fact not allowing people who like purple is going against a stated fundamental value of the ACC?

 

Of course that point will be completely ignored and the anti-purple people will reply: "why don't you just go away and join a purple club instead?".

There's a couple of issues here. Why would people who like purple want to join a group that has people who like red or blue but not any other colors?

 

And why would purple lovers expect the blue and red people to all of a sudden start liking purple just because they joined?

 

One can respect and be courteous towards someone without having to be BFF with them.

 

I have had many differing discussions with others over the years, but none of them have been those of my religion or denomination. For the most part they don't seem to be in a hurry to join my group either. We can still be friends and neither gets in the face of the other. Of course I'm not in a hurry to join their group either so with mutual courtesy and respect, we get along just fine.

[David CO]

He is faithful of his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

The recent policy change seems to make these two statements contradictory.

 

To be faithful in my religious duties, I must accept my religions teachings that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered and homosexual acts are gravely sinful. I accept it, and I believe it.

 

Any fair minded person would concede this point. I didn't just make this up.

 

On the second part, I can't see how I can say to another Scouter that his beliefs are intrinsically disordered and gravely sinful, but I respect them. What rank hypocrisy!

 

If you feel that the phrases "intrinsically disordered" and "gravely sinful" are harsh, I agree. If you feel that they are also disrespectful, I also agree. If you feel that my religion disrespects the beliefs of others, I whole heartedly agree.

 

It is my religion, and I believe it.

 

So, why am I still in BSA? That's a fair question.

 

I belong to a religion that believes that some decisions are best made as individual members, while other decisions are best made collectively, as a church. Since this matter involves the teachings of my church, and not merely my own personal opinions, and equally applies to all members of my religion, and not just me, I'm waiting to see what my church decides.

 

I'm sure that won't happen until after the policy decision is finalized.

Edited July 22, 2015 by David CO

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Anyone can, and probably has, been sued for anything.  Can there be consequences?  Yes, but not often enough or severe enough to stop the filing of baseless suits.

 

There are plenty of baseless lawsuits, but that's true no matter what.  The BSA hasn't changed from a private group to a public accommodation, so bringing up the possibility of baseless lawsuits is just a scare tactic -- before, there was the possibility of baseless lawsuits, and after, there's STILL the possibility of baseless lawsuits.  Hey, maybe if the BSA changes the official uniform, that'll spur some baseless lawsuits.

[CalicoPenn]

Do you believe that all religions deserve equal respect? I don't.

 

I agree - not all religions deserve equal respect - your religion, for one, deserves absolutely no respect from good, honest and hardworking people - not if it's based on bigotry and hatred towards other religious traditions.  It's religious traditions like yours that leads people to gas millions of Jews in gas chambers, that leads people to beat and murder Sikh's minding their own business in the United States, that leads people to put on white robes and hide behind white hoods like cowards as they denouce Catholics, that leads people to storm jails and murder religious leaders to make sure those darn Mormon's don't gain a foothold in your state, that leads people to declare every Muslim everywhere to be terrorists.

 

As for the OA?  It's a program of the Boy Scouts of America - it's not a separate organization - and therefore the policy is going to apply to them .  Since you're refusing to allow your Scouts to have access to the great things that the OA does because of your ignorant misconceptions about the Order of the Arrow, then why are you even worried about it? 

 

Long live Baal, Zuul, Gozer and the Keymaster!

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Nobody, so far, no one has mentioned the Order of the Arrow. Is the OA going to be inclusive?

I was planning to stop posting in this thread, but I think this is a unique question that doesn't really relate to everything that has been hashed and rehashed over 14 pages (so far).

 

Presumably, at least in theory, the OA already is "inclusive" as far as youth members are concerned. Openly gay youth have been allowed to be members of the BSA since the beginning of 2014. If they are elected to the OA and complete the requirements, I don't see any basis for excluding them.

[TAHAWK]

Ah yes, "I'm OK.  You're not."  How enlightened.

[desertrat77]

 

 

Long live Baal, Zuul, Gozer and the Keymaster!

 

 

 

Calico, I'm not entirely sure if you are serious or not, but I'll bite.

 

Regarding your list of dieties:  would you mind sharing some of their contributions to the welfare and progress of mankind?

Edited July 22, 2015 by desertrat77

[Horizon]

Calico, I'm not entirely sure if you are serious or not, but I'll bite.

 

Regarding your list of dieties:  would you mind sharing some of their contributions to the welfare and progress of mankind?

 

http://www.ghostbusters.com/

[desertrat77]

http://www.ghostbusters.com/

LOL!

[eagle77]

 I saw this too late but.

 

 Who you gonna call....