eagle77 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 BadWolf, I take it your CO is not a religious organization? Without identifying it, what kind of organization is it? I think we all need to remember that the BSA has said that the CO's usual discretion to appoint leaders is still in place. Does this hypothetical gay person just show up from out of the blue with no connection to the troop and unknown to any of the leaders or families? I think most troops would be very wary of such a person, regardless of this change and regardless of avowed orientation. This is a great point. I don't know about other units, but just because you walk into a meeting doesn't mean I am going to give you an application to join our troop. The only time that I have ever done this is when the adult is standing there with his son or step-son with a leaders uniform on. From the pack that he had just graduated from. Otherwise you will have to wait before any in our troop will offer you an application. It's just a no-brainer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 BadWolf, I take it your CO is not a religious organization? Without identifying it, what kind of organization is it? I think we all need to remember that the BSA has said that the CO's usual discretion to appoint leaders is still in place. Does this hypothetical gay person just show up from out of the blue with no connection to the troop and unknown to any of the leaders or families? I think most troops would be very wary of such a person, regardless of this change and regardless of avowed orientation. Wary or not, if the person is declined membership there goes your lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 This is a great point. I don't know about other units, but just because you walk into a meeting doesn't mean I am going to give you an application to join our troop. The only time that I have ever done this is when the adult is standing there with his son or step-son with a leaders uniform on. From the pack that he had just graduated from. Otherwise you will have to wait before any in our troop will offer you an application. It's just a no-brainer. I recall two guys who filled out an application who were not parents, but one was a friend of the SM so he had a connection to the troop, the other was a police officer in town so he was "known" in the community. In neither case did the person become active, but they were accepted. I also recall that in the last version of the YPT video that I saw (not the online course and I don't think it's the current video) there was a warning about the unknown prospective leader who is "too good to be true." The BSA does not expect to accept just anyone off the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Wary or not, if the person is declined membership there goes your lawsuit. The court would take into account that there was a good reason for declining the application. And I know it's costly whether you win or lose, even if there's insurance. But lawsuits can happen even under the soon-to-be-old policy. In fact the BSA's own legal memo says they expected the Dale decision to be overturned. That would have to have started with a lawsuit in some state or federal trial court somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) The court would take into account that there was a good reason for declining the application. And I know it's costly whether you win or lose, even if there's insurance. But lawsuits can happen even under the soon-to-be-old policy. In fact the BSA's own legal memo says they expected the Dale decision to be overturned. That would have to have started with a lawsuit in some state or federal trial court somewhere. The difference being now my CO takes the liability and not the cowards in Dallas. So what exactly does national, council,and district do for us besides make our lives more and more difficult. Thankfully my work in BSA is almost done. Sadly, my grandchildren won't be participating in this once noble organization. Pathetic. Edited July 20, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I wish I could predict what my grandsons will do. They're not old enough yet for cubs. But I recognize that with all the different alternatives out there, they and their parents will make the best decision they can for their own interests. I will support whatever they decide, but there is no way that I'm going to intrude on that decision. I will only offer my support however they decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 How noble of you. Wish you felt the same about those who wanted to keep BSA the way it was. Funny how you won't impose your feelings on your children or grandchildren, but you have no issue doing it to strangers working in the same organization as you. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 How noble of you. Wish you felt the same about those who wanted to keep BSA the way it was. Funny how you won't impose your feelings on your children or grandchildren, but you have no issue doing it to strangers working in the same organization as you. I realize that was directed at Packsaddle, but I will respond. The old policy imposed one group's beliefs on another group. The new policy allows for choice. It isn't perfect, because non-religious CO's that want to remain gay-exclusive will not have the option. I wanted everybody to have the option, but legal issues make that difficult. As I said before, if people want to make this work, there will probably be some realignment of units and people moving between units. But more people will have more choice, and that's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Bad Wolf, I'm sorry you feel that it is somehow bad that your ability to impose YOUR values on me and my grandchildren has diminished with this policy change. But I guess that's to be expected. I have always advocated individual choices and freedoms. This policy change is a step in that direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Initially, this decision will polarize Scouting into regular units, which follow BSA guidelines, and church-owned units, which are exempted from the guidelines. Those who are caught in the middle might not, contrary to what some have claimed, be able to join and fully participate in a church-owned unit. Recent court cases make it pretty clear that when church organizations open their doors to accommodate non-members, they put the ability to exercise their own religious freedoms at risk. Down the road, this will prove to be an untenable, no-win situation. Church-owned units will either have to entrench, which defeats both the purpose and spirit of Scouting, or disband their units. Packsaddle and NJ are 100% wrong. This will not add to our choices and freedoms. It is not a good thing. Edited July 20, 2015 by David CO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridgeskip Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 BadWolf, I take it your CO is not a religious organization? Without identifying it, what kind of organization is it? I think we all need to remember that the BSA has said that the CO's usual discretion to appoint leaders is still in place. Does this hypothetical gay person just show up from out of the blue with no connection to the troop and unknown to any of the leaders or families? I think most troops would be very wary of such a person, regardless of this change and regardless of avowed orientation. Seriously you'd be wary? Someone turns up who is not just there for the time their kid will be there, instead they want to volunteer for the sake of it? I'd rip their arm off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Recent court cases make it pretty clear that when church organizations open their doors to accommodate non-members, they put the ability to exercise their own religious freedoms at risk. Down the road, this will prove to be an untenable, no-win situation. Church-owned units will either have to entrench, which defeats both the purpose and spirit of Scouting, or disband their units. Packsaddle and NJ are 100% wrong. This will not add to our choices and freedoms. It is not a good thing. Please cite the cases that make what you claim clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Recent court cases make it pretty clear that when church organizations open their doors to accommodate non-members, they put the ability to exercise their own religious freedoms at risk. Packsaddle already asked you for evidence of this, so I will just note that in my area there are many BSA units chartered to places of worship and, as far as I am aware, all of them are open not only to non-members of that particular church (etc.) but to members of other religions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Seriously you'd be wary? Someone turns up who is not just there for the time their kid will be there, instead they want to volunteer for the sake of it? I'd rip their arm off. Yes, I think many leaders would exercise a certain amount of caution in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Bad Wolf, I'm sorry you feel that it is somehow bad that your ability to impose YOUR values on me and my grandchildren has diminished with this policy change. But I guess that's to be expected. I have always advocated individual choices and freedoms. This policy change is a step in that direction. You joined the grouping KNOWING of this policy!! I hope someone joins something you hold dear and totally changes it to something you can't abide by so you can walk a mile in our shoes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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