Wake Up Call

[Eagle94-A1]

Well I think the SM of the troop that has some challenges just got a wake up call. Hopefully things will change.

 

Long story short, oldest son's troop has a camp out coming up. They have an open invitation for Webelos to camp with them, but I wasn't going to take him because I hate taking him when the rest of the den won't be there. However, I now have to take him. So I asked and got approved to invite the entire Webelos group.

 

Then I got this reply

 

 

<i>[Eagle94-a1]it is in bad taste to recruit Pack members into another Troop. You may not agree as I have seen several posts in the past. Troop !@#  has often invited Pack !@#  members to our outings and they will always be invited; but to openly or secretly recruit like this is about the lowest form of scouting that can exists. And if Troop $%'s leadership is ok with these low tactics, then that in itself says something about he Troop & the leadership of it </i>

 

Now I admit, this set me off. Not so much the attack on me, but the "...low tactics, then that in itself sasy something about he Troop & the leadership of it." We got a great key three and ASM. We do not want to "steal" anyone. We want every scout to have an opportunity to be in scouting, whether with us or in another troop. Heck, we have sent visitors and our own Scouts to other troops becasue that troop was a better fit.

 

Anyway our CM's wife chimed in about approriateness, so I apologized, deleted the comments, and messaged him.

 

Hopefully this is a wake up call. Hopefully he will realize that if he doesn't do something, ANYTHING, with the pack, folks will look elsewhere for a troop for their sons to join.

 

[packsaddle]

When I took over as CM, the pack was declining. One of my bear DLs decided to disband the den. She said something to her friends... to the effect that she thought the pack might die. She never said anything to me about this but then, I was the new CM and still finding my way. She really didn't know me that well. But then, a den leader from another pack in town, who is friends with the 'former' Bear den leader, started calling all of the parents in our pack to inform them that the pack was going to close and they should switch to the other pack.

I didn't find out about any of this until one of those parents called me with an angry tone to complain that I should have been honest enough to tell them the pack was going to close, rather than hear about it from the other pack.

I was flabergasted and completely blindsided by this. Then I found out that it went farther than one person from the other pack making a few phone calls. The DE had been giving all sorts of preference to the other pack for years. That was when I began to understand the toxic sociology of adult leadership in BSA.

Because in my past I had already learned about and understood such things as a sort of norm in the South, I was able to adjust and take the measures needed to first: survive the immediate assault, and then: to outmaneuver the others in a way that turned the tables. But it took years of effort to turn those tables.

 

I can tell you that in matters like this, to be on the receiving end is a pretty bad feeling. It encompasses all sorts of betrayal and wholesale violation of many points of the Scout Law. My pack survived nicely in the end, but the experience in total led me to have a healthy contempt for BSA 'professionals' and to be wary of the other adult leaders. It was bitter fruit but I suppose that is what the system is designed to produce.

Edited July 2, 2015 by packsaddle

[qwazse]

Your reply:

"Easy solution: camp more. 'Nuff said."

 

But it hardly matters. They won't take it as a wake up call. They just found a scapegoat.

 

Now, would I have gone through the trouble of inviting the rest of my den? No! That's the PLC's call. Even if there's this open invitation, if they did not plan this particular weekend to have Webelos, then your son should have asked one buddy and his dad, at most, to keep him company. Same rules as I have with the crew. It's not on me to muck about inviting the troop. That's the VP of program's job.

 

What's up with needing to invite the den if your son has to come, anyway? If you have to take him to the pub on Dad's night out, do you invite the den?

 

All that's not the pack's problem ... But maybe you did jump through the hoops with the PLC and that detail was cut in the process of making a long story short. Just making sure folks in Internet land get it.

[Gone]

 

I can tell you that in matters like this, to be on the receiving end is a pretty bad feeling. It encompasses all sorts of betrayal and wholesale violation of many points of the Scout Law. My pack survived nicely in the end, but the experience in total led me to have a healthy contempt for BSA 'professionals' and to be wary of the other adult leaders. It was bitter fruit but I suppose that is what the system is designed to produce.

This is exactly why I am so sour on district and council. They play favorites constantly, then they call our unit (since we are so strong and self-sufficient) to get us to plug holes in their program.

 

Take, take, take and all they back room politics -- and dirty politics at that -- confirm why we stay away.

[Eagle94-A1]

             As you all know, the troop's decline has been several years in the making. I and others have tried to help, to no avail. In addition to the SM, I also talked to one of the parents who took all the training except ITOLs, and she's looking at that. Don't know what her official role is, but she was the Pack's CC at one point. So she has a little Scouting experience. We specifically talked about recruiting and how important it is to get back involved with the pack. This was back in March. And while I was talking to her, our CM was talking to the SM about the same thing. Last week, both of our troops attended the same summer camp. Our CM, whose son joined our troop after hanging with us at district camporee, council camporee, and the Webeloree, talked to the ASM in charge for the week about this very situation. According to the CM, NONE of the conversations with the SM and asking for involvement is being passed down to the other leaders.

 

Here's the irony of the SM's comment: my troop's leadership wants the troubled troop to thrive. One of the ASMs and I put together and staffed ITOLS in a hurry when we found out that the new SM and the other leaders didn't have it. I've recruited for the troop once, and an ASM suggested that an experienced transfer from out of council visit the troop since A) he may be able to help them and B) he went to the CO's church.

 

As for inviting the whole den, I got approval from that. I asked the SM first to make sure it was OK with him. He in turn asked the SPL.  Now I admit I don't know if he talked to his PLs, but the SPL said that was fine. I don't know how many will go since it's short noticed, but I do know at least 2 other Webelos will be there. And we will working on Aquanaut since it's the troop's fun Boating Weekend.

 

I didn't think of the district angle and favoritism. I know that the SM made a comment about not doing Scouting for Food becasue of "district politics." Maybe because I am on the district committee I cannot see what he is talking about. But I think the district has gone out of the way to help them out and make them feel welcome.

 

We have invited leaders from them to be part of the district Advancement committee. No takers.  We have been trying get them to attend RTs and involved for over 5 years now, and it's at their CO. Kinda hard to find out what's going on, and be involved  when no one attends the meeting that discusses the details for various activities in the district. I know that when the district did spring recruiting for both the Pack and Troop, they didn't send anyone to help recruit. Against my better judgement I sent 3 new Scouts to them, only to find out that withing 3 or 4 months they all quit. And I already mentioned how the district was able to ram through an ITOLS in 2 months, specifically for them, and they only the SM attends because "it's to cold to camp."

 

Being blamed for the problems they have is extremely frustrating, especially since I've done everything in my power to help them.

[Gone]

@@Eagle94-A1 I've asked repeated for BSA's guidelines on recruiting from district and council; I have yet to see anything. In my area troops recruit from any pack they want. Some are "aligned" with a troop (e.g., troop and pack share the same CO) but we still send out invites to all packs for our open activities. Some troops treat a few packs as "feeder" packs, but when you go ask the packs how they fell all they say is, "We never see the troops until recruiting night." Our unit always supplies Den Chiefs, plans pack  meetings, has open events for ALL Cubs (not just Webelos). We truly want to show we care about ALL packs. If you join us, great. If not, no problem.

 

I just don't get the "this pack is ours" mentality that some troops have. I understand in some smaller areas there *is* more of an "aligned" relationship between packs and troops.

 

It would help if BSA had some high-level guidelines on recruiting for troops. Of course, simply being friendly and open SHOULD be the key to solving any inter-troop issue. Sadly that is seldom the case.

[Eagle94-A1]

@

 

I think part of the issues with having broad, national recruiting policies is that every situation is different. Some troops have a feeder pack, some don't. Some packs have a feeder troop, other don't. Some schools systems allow Scouts in, and other don't.

 

Closets I've found to a national policy is the Webelos to Scout Transition Guide. It's a guide, and I personally am glad it is as there are some things I do not like about it.

 

What do I not like about it?

 

1) It focuses solely on Webelos IIs and not the Webelos as a whole. Because of various situations, i.e. late birthdays, being helpd back, etc, It is possible for Webelos I to meet all of the requirements, including the time/age requirement, in 1 year of Webelos. My pack has had a few cases like that, and my Middle Son is trying to do that this year since he will meet the 6 months since turning 10 in May.

 

I think you need to work with Webelos ASAP.

 

2) They need to not that the timeline they give could possibly be moved up as soon as 2 months, or extended  3 months.  As a den, the earliest everyone will meet the time requirement is December 1st since SCOUTNET promotes everyone to the next level on June 1st. And there are a few packs that still do the May graduation.

 

 

On a different note, as I mentioned I PM'd the SM, I know that he got my messages since A) he was online when I sent them, and B) after I finished the PMs, he still posted on the pack FB group page.

 

Yep he's ignoring me, again.

[Eagledad]

I know this doesn’t directly contribute a lot to Eagle94’s OP, but it stirred up a lot of memories. Watching adult volunteers over the years I've come to realize how fragile the program is. We watch the politics, the angles, and the games adults play to our frustration, but it doesn't take much to upset the present trend.

 

 

Businesses survive or fail by the quality of their product. If an employee is the cause of poor quality, then our culture expects and understands when they are asked to move on. But volunteer organizations are desperate to keep the program moving, even it that movement is going backwards. We are pretty much left (stuck) with who we get and as a result you would be amazed with the acceptance of really bad volunteers. I mean I have seen some horrible volunteerism accepted by the masses just because nobody else is willing to just say "no, that is stupid". Ok, stupid is unscout-like, but you know what I mean.  

 

 

A long time ago while I was on the district committee, I learned that the adults in our districts 2nd largest troop turned a blind eye to the PLC using hazing to drive out the weaker scouts. Nobody seemed to care because the troop had a good reputation on the whole and their adults volunteered for a lot of district activities. But I guess it got to me because when I bumped into one of their ASMs at the scout store one day, I quietly and politely let him know that I knew it was going on. I can't say our discussion is the reason, but the SM suddenly retired within 6 months and the hazing stopped.  But come on, that went on for years.

 

 

Bad acting goes on all the time from the Cubs down to council level because the show must go on. I've worked with a lot of scouting professionals and some aren’t very good, but I developed a respect for them because they have to deal with really bad volunteers every day. If you could follow a DE around for one day, you would understand. If you don't see the DE very much, it is likely because you have a sound program and their efforts are needed else where.

 

 

However, as I said the system is fragile and can change quickly. Good or bad, typically adults with strong personalities change the routine at all levels of the program. I have caused change myself at all levels of the program many times. The reason it is so fragile is because 90% of volunteers are followers and/or don't like confrontation. So when a strong personality gets in the mix, they generally will change things up a little. That can be good or bad depending on the person. But I see it over and over as I observe the program. Consistent training is the best way to resist a fickle program. That is why you see me call out extreme untried philosophies on this forum. 

 

 

As the pros have shown me, a little of the bad is acceptable so that the good can move forward because there isn’t enough time in the day to fix every problem and make every program perfect. So they apply their energy where it can have the most positive effect. Usually in the long run it eventually balances out.

 

 

We all hope that adults eventually get it and things turn around, but sadly my experience is adults don’t change and we have to wait for the circle of life to come back around to make the fix. Likely this SM won't change and the program will suffer until a new volunteer takes over. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get rid of bad volunteers, but they are like trying to untangled a child's fingers from fly paper. Get this, I even tried to kill a troop once with the objective of starting it back up again with a new committee. Even with some support from the DC, we couldn’t pull it off and the troop still struggles with the same committee 20 years later. Shesh.

 

 

My apologies to Eagle94 for my wandering off and venting.

 

 

Barry

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Barry,

 

You hit the nail on the head. No need to apologize. Heck I vent here a lot, especially the past few years about this troop.

 

Funny thing is, just as I try to move on, something like this happens, and I'm sucked back in.

[packsaddle]

This system is structured in a way that depends totally on having willing (and usually 'interested') volunteers. It is a natural tendency for someone who invests freely and sometimes deeply into something they have great interest in...to naturally have a feeling of 'ownership' for the thing (a pack or troop in this case) in which they've invested. This is to be expected.

However, this also naturally tends to produce competition by forming little 'fiefdoms' like 'feeder packs' and 'feeder troops' and 'the-way-we-usually-do-things'. Once these expectations are in place, any departure can be considered a threat to the 'stability' of the existing structure. I get all this.

 

None of it, however, is part of 'friendly', 'courteous', 'helpful', or 'trustworthy'. And when things like I experienced happen, I'll throw in violations of 'cheerful' and 'brave' as well because the behind-the-back way they happen is cowardly as well.

 

While it is understandable, it is not completely realistic because individual families are free agents and if they're not allowed to make their own choices of units, they can, and do, choose to leave scouting. If there is any part of 'training' that warns against this kind of thing, I am unaware of it.

 

BUT, these sources of discord and conflict are the natural tendency of things if the structure of the organization depends on interested volunteers. Perhaps the 'training' should address this kind of thing directly as something to avoid. At least then no one could claim they were unaware of the potential problems.

[Scouter99]

We ran into this when several new scouts transferred to our troop from the troop down the road soon after crossing over into that troop (I guess the experience was different than the advertisement).  They came on their own, but a few years prior, a couple scouts had transferred from them to us, so all of a sudden they were at Roundtable and day camp talking about our huge conspiracy to steal "their" Webelos.

 

Troops don't own or have special rights to a pack that shares their unit number.  They're better positioned to recruit, but letting packs know who you are and where you are has nothing to do with the morals of Scouting.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Scouter99

[moosetracker]

You are doing something wrong if you bad mouth the one troop and push the other Troop.. If you encourage your cubs to visit several neighborhood troops in the area and choose based on their interest, you are not doing anything wrong..  Basically you are helping your cubs find a troop that will personally fit their needs and make them happy and keep them in scouting longer.

 

A troop should run a good program in order to excite the cubs to join.. Being under the same CO as the Pack does not mean they get all scouts by default regardless of what type of program they put on.. Competition is good as it pushes either scouts and/or units to excel.. Feelings of entitlement do not encourage excellence in a program..

Edited July 3, 2015 by moosetracker

[Eagle94-A1]

As you may have guessed from previous posts on other threads, I've been extremely torn up about this troop. I have a long history with them, and do not want to see the troop fold. And I do see that happening if something doesn't change.

 

On the other hand, I have an interest in the success of my Scouts. I want them to have fun, have the opportunities I've had, etc.

 

The district knows what going on as 1) I've talked to the district commissioner about the situation and that since I am being ignored by my advice, as well as the lack of being bale to commit to them as a full time UC, that they find someone ASAP to replace the UC that died and B) district committee see them not participating after doing everything they could to get them involved.

 

As for bad mouthing the troop when they insulted my troop's leadership on  facebook, mea culpa. I admit it got to me, especially after everything I and others have done, including my troop's leadership,  to help them out. I did publicly, but politely, told him that the troop hasn't really involved the  Webelos for over 2 years. The one time they did invite to camp with them, at the district's Webeloree, it was 4 days before the event. This was after the pack's leadership repeatedly asked them several months before hand ( I want to say 2-3 months) if the Webelos could camp with them. With no response 2 weeks out, they accepted another troop's invitation. I also told him how I and the pack's leadership has made numerous attempts to get the Troop involved somehow with the pack so that our Webelos could get to know them, and want to join the troop to no avail. wasn't trying to bad mouth, but trying to make him see reality. I then deleted the posts and private messaged him instead.

[moosetracker]

Personally, I would stay with private emails rather then public ones,  but make it known to him that if his troop would like to invite your troop to activities, you would be happy to let your scouts know about that and encourage them to attend. But, as far as your concerned, it is important for your scouts to go visit any troop in the area that extends an invitation so that your scouts find the troop that fits their needs.. That it will not be your decision or his decision as to where these scouts choose to go.. It will be the scouts decision.. The AOL requirement states  "With your Webelos den, visit at least  a) one Boy Scout troop meeting, and  b) one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity."     "at least" means this is bare minimum required, but to you the word encourages you to visit more then one.. It does not say "visit only one"..   Explain that Troops will attract boys for different reasons. It could be as simple as having a meeting day that works for the scout, to having more of a program in an area they enjoy like hiking, aquatics or camping.. Or the make up of the troop may interest a boy some enjoying a small troop while others gravitate to a large troop.  This is not being rude to his troop, this is doing your best for your boys to help them make a well informed decision that will be the correct one for them and keep them in scouting for many years to come..

 

Keep it professional, polite and keep it so that you are offering them fair and equal opportunity to recruit the scouts.. If you have made comments to your cubs or their parents that may have poisoned their attitude toward keeping an open mind when looking at this troop, think if there is anything you can do to rectify that.. But be firm in your belief that your actions to accept invites from other troops is equally fair and is in the best interest of your scouts so they can make a well informed decision. 

[SSScout]

This discussion is not so much about "what the boy(s) need or want" as it is about what the adult wants.
Here, the adult seems to want a Boy Scout Troop. If he (or she?) has a big Troop, with boys moving into it, he feels successful. If there is a Cub Pack that is "his", then that moving in, that joining is almost automatic and guaranteed.
Where is the effort? Where is the proof that the Troop is a good one, boy led, full of the adventure and safe opportunity that we here are always talking about?
"If you build it, they will join" but only if THEY know about "it". Recruiting involves more than protecting Cub Pack "turf".  You need a program that the boys have ownership in, that they would want to tell their buds about and invite them to join.  The community needs to know about it, thru posters and signs  and media  stories and service projects.