Advice Needed

[Stosh]

 

 

 

 

... not going there ...

 

 

 

I consider that a swear word ... a minor one, but still a swear word.  So would many others.  Just because it's common in the culture does not mean it's not a swear word.  Especially in scouting where you include many home schooled and/or strong faith-based families.  A vulgar image is being used as an adjective.  Same as if you used private body parts or bodily functions to draw vulgar images.  

 

That's why I asked the original question. I consider the above crude, lacking sophistication and absolutely not the vocabulary to use around scouts.  I'm pretty middle of the road too.   BUT I never use that word.  Period.   Others would clearly consider it swearing.  ... That's why I asked.  

 

The original poster complained about swearing.  What two people hear can be interpreted very differently.  

 

 

Let's just use the term inappropriate language because swearing has nothing to do with bodily functions.    It has to do with using language to persuade or validate one's position whether it is true or not.  "I swear I didn't do it!"  Cursing is using the word Damn,  that is to use some power (mostly God's) to condemn someone.  Truly an inappropriate prayer petition.  Vulgar is mostly what one tosses around indicating something tossed in to offer some sort of strong emphasis to the comment.

 

Most adults use inappropriate language to emphasize their conversations because they lack wordsmith skills.    After a while, it's just habit and used really as their normal conversation.

 

Youth pick up on the vocabulary as an indication of adulthood which they then emulate.

 

While I don't make it a habit to really study speech patterns because I just leave when the conversation goes south.  Generally for emphasis I have other more appropriate and effective ways of getting a point across to the boys.  Sometimes what is NOT said is more effective than what is emphasized with vulgar language.

[Gone]

@@Stosh I have seen a rise in such language in the professional environment, mostly from 20- and 30-somethings. During team calls (Fortune 100 company) they've dropped the f-bomb or worse, and frequently, to punctuate their point. Very sad.

 

I can only imagine what it will be like in 15 years when these young scouts make it in to the work force.

[Stosh]

They have the right to free speech and can use those words whenever they wish.  I have a right to the pursuit of happiness and getting up and moving away from such people is a choice I frequently make.  My dad is in the nursing home and goes off on a rant (former naval aviator) and starts with the foul language.  The solution is simple, just hang up and I have done so on many occasions.  When he calls back the language is always a LOT better.  

 

They have a choice and so do I.

[Gone]

They have the right to free speech and can use those words whenever they wish.  I have a right to the pursuit of happiness and getting up and moving away from such people is a choice I frequently make.  My dad is in the nursing home and goes off on a rant (former naval aviator) and starts with the foul language.  The solution is simple, just hang up and I have done so on many occasions.  When he calls back the language is always a LOT better.  

 

They have a choice and so do I.

 

I mention it at review time in the "areas for improvement". That get's their attention too.

[fred johnson]

Let's just use the term inappropriate language because swearing has nothing to do with bodily functions.  

 

Ummm ... The vast majority of swear words absolutely come from words related to body parts or bodily functions or relating to the practice and use of said body parts.  The only non-related ones would be darn / d### and hell.  

 

I understand your point.  It's just argumentative and not useful to the original poster.  I was trying to point out that one person's swear word is another person's unoffensive word.  

[Eagledad]

Ummm ... The vast majority of swear words absolutely come from words related to body parts or bodily functions or relating to the practice and use of said body parts.  The only non-related ones would be darn / d### and hell.  

 

I understand your point.  It's just argumentative and not useful to the original poster.  I was trying to point out that one person's swear word is another person's unoffensive word.  

I ran into this at summer camp once. Our troop always does a troop campfire in the middle of the week for our own fun. During the campfire each patrol performs a skit, then the scouts vote for the best skit that will be used at the summer camp campfire. The winning skit had a small part where a doctor has the patient bend over and he simulates doing a proctol exam with his finger. Later that night I visited the SPL and told him that I found that little part of the skit offensive and would rather not see it performed again, especially in front of all the other troops. He was perplexed because he didn't see it as being offensive at all. He said he would bring it up at the PLC meeting and let me know. The whole PLC agreed with him. I asked him if he would allow that in front of his mother and sister, he had not thought of it that way, but he still didn't think it offensive. I asured him that the decision was up to him, but I was offended. 

 

It bothered me for the next couple of days because I wanted boy run to work and I felt this was a test of it. At dinner before the camp fire, the SPL approached me and said that they change that part of the skit because if one person was offended, that was one too many. And he walked away. But I have never felt more proud as a SM than that moment. As for the skit, they replace the finger with a fake syringe so that the doctor was giving a shot instead of proctol exam. Our Troop got a standing ovation for the skit, something I have never seen before. So, it was a good night all around.

 

My point is that the scout law is to be applied to everyone. It doesn't matter if only one person is offended, as the SPL said, one is too many.

 

Barry 

Edited July 2, 2015 by Eagledad

[Gone]

My point is that the scout law is to be applied to everyone. It doesn't matter if only one person is offended, as the SPL said, one is too many.

 

 

Exactly! And your point about would you say/do it in front your mom/sister, religious leader, teacher, mentor, etc., would it be appropriate is spot on. Regardless of where you were raised, people should apply the Scout Law. Where I grew up we used a few choice words everywhere, and everyone in my town (except pastor) uses them...does not give us the excuse to use them in front of scouts. Adults should have that filter and know better.

[NJCubScouter]

I am fairly confident that when our new friend used the word "swearing", he was not referring to words invoking a Deity or Holy Book to confirm that a person is speaking the truth. (Although "God" is, of course, part of one of the words potentially at issue.) He is talking about cursing, profanity, vulgarity, bad words, bad language, inappropriate language, whatever you wish to call it and however you wish to define it. I also strongly suspect that he is not talking about what we in our troop call "grey areas" (some of which has been bandied about by other posters above, to the great amusement of all, I'm sure) but rather to the good-old-fashioned, major league "bad words." Like George Carlin's Seven Words You Can't Say on Television. (But pleeease, no speculating about what those words are in case someone doesn't know, and no discussion of which of the words may no longer be on the list 40 years later.)

 

On the issue of campsites overrun with well-meaning parents, I think we all basically agree on this. I don't think that has anything to do with whether a troop can ever have "family camping" and still call itself a Boy Scout troop. "My" troop used to have what the SM called a "family camping trip" once a year, generally in late June. It was a way of doing something special to mark the end of the school year, a break from regular meetings until after summer camp, and was usually to somewhere that was not the same-old-campsite in the same-old-camp. In practice, at least by the time I was going camping with the troop, it was "family camping" only in the sense that more fathers than usual were present - no moms, sisters or little brothers that I can recall. (I mean, we did have some committee members on some camping trips who happened to be moms rather than dads, but they were registered leaders so that's different.) The whole idea of family camping seems to have faded out around the same time that my son was aging out of the troop, and now the June camping trip is just another camping trip.

 

But here we are not talking about a once-a-year special event. We are talking about a troop where EVERY camping trip must be dominated by parents. And where the parents are upset that BOTH parents of EVERY boy can't be there. Boggles my mind.

[MrBob]

Start charging the parents for attending, and make sure the dollar amount charged exceeds the actual cost of them being there - may as well turn it into a troop fundraiser.

[Scouter99]

Well, then it's kinda tough to know what you mean when you say some language is considered appropriate depending on "who you are and where you grew up."  Not buying this situational or culturally selective application of appropriate language. If you wouldn't say it in your house or worship, in front of your boss or in your kid's school then you know pretty much if it is appropriate or not, no matter who you are or where you grew up. That's just no excuse.

 

Of course what one considers a swear word depends on regional differences.  The company my father worked for opened a new office, we moved from one southern state to another, and other employees from northern states were brought in to open the new office.  Families made friends, and I was shocked to hear the northern families' (including moms and kids) casual use of the D-word and S-word (I feel stupid phrasing it that way but I'm assuming the mods prefer it).  My mom explained that people talk differently in different parts of the country. 

As a kid, maybe 3rd or 4th grade, I was sat in my best friend's kitchen and was telling them how northerner's have dirty mouths.  His mother wanted to teach me a lesson about running my mouth, so she mentioned that they had family in some northern state.  I was embarrassed to death, but my friend didn't get it and piped up, "yeah, and they cuss all the time!"

 

Did they talk like that because they were foul-mouthed, amoral people unfit to lead a Scout unit?  No, they spoke like that because where they're from it's not a problem.  They certainly understand that it's colorful language and maybe not language you should use in a uniform, but they didn't even understand it to be a word they should use in front of kids or even not to allow their own kids (under 10 yrs) to use.  Like crap for me.

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... not going there ...

 

I consider that a swear word ... a minor one, but still a swear word.  So would many others.  Just because it's common in the culture does not mean it's not a swear word.  Especially in scouting where you include many home schooled and/or strong faith-based families.  A vulgar image is being used as an adjective.  Same as if you used private body parts or bodily functions to draw vulgar images.  

 

That's why I asked the original question. I consider the above crude, lacking sophistication and absolutely not the vocabulary to use around scouts.  I'm pretty middle of the road too.   BUT I never use that word.  Period.   Others would clearly consider it swearing.  ... That's why I asked.  

 

The original poster complained about swearing.  What two people hear can be interpreted very differently.

 

You would probably find the kids who deemed "fart" a swear as silly as I find people who think crap is a swear word.

 

Is crap a word people ought to use in polite company?  No, and it's not really a word I walk around saying at scouts.  Is it a swear word?  Grow up   And there's the cultural difference.

 

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There are several substitute swear words that I call the boys on, too. Freaking, flippin' fracking, etc.  I ask them to define what that word means as used in the context that they said it, or do push-ups.  Building some good shoulders!

 

Exactly! Everyone knows what that's the substitute for. Had a Battlestar Gallactical fan use "frackin'" for a while. While I appreciate the geek in him the SPL told him even that was unacceptable.

 

If they're swearing in front of the kids, you're darn tootin' parents should be limited/banned. Does not sound like they have the same problem you do. They have too many volunteers.

 

Not sure if trolling...

Everyone knows what darn means, and we're not talking about needlework.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Scouter99

[Gone]

Of course what one considers a swear word depends on regional differences.  The company my father worked for opened a new office, we moved from one southern state to another, and other employees from northern states were brought in to open the new office.  Families made friends, and I was shocked to hear the northern families' (including moms and kids) casual use of the D-word and S-word (I feel stupid phrasing it that way but I'm assuming the mods prefer it).  My mom explained that people talk differently in different parts of the country. 

 

 

I know guys from Pittsburgh that use "Jag-off" as a term of endearment and as a vulgarity. Do they know not to use that around kids? Absolutely. My "southie" friends curse an Irish blue streak, but when working with kids they are almost comical how they alter their speech to make sure the vulgarities don't slip out.

 

I will concede that there are socio-economic, cultural and even perhaps regional uses for vulgarities that have slipped in to their popular speech and nomenclature, but these same people know that using these words/phrases in front of kids is wrong. Well, those with brains realize that. Some just don't care or could not be bothered.

[packsaddle]

Maybe the 13th should be ' A scout is polite'?

[Scouter99]

Maybe the 13th should be ' A scout is polite'?

The 13^th point of the Scout Law is already "Excepting Eagles, OA bigwigs, and sons of Scoutmasters"

Edited July 3, 2015 by Scouter99

[Gone]

Maybe the 13th should be ' A scout is polite'?

 

Covered under "Courteous", no?

[Oldscout448]

Getting back to the OP,  I can offer only a little advice,  on the scout who wont listen to anyone but his parents,  assuming said scout has no disability that would cause such a problem, this is someting that he is going to need to change.  Has anyone talked to his parents?  This would be the scouters job. Ask why, then ask when they plan to teach their son that sometimes he must listen to others?  When he goes off to college?  first job?  first traffic ticket?

  Offer that scouts is a good place to learn such needed skills.   Try to enlist their support rather than their opposition.

 

A long time ago, in a troop far far away we had a scout who refused to do any work whatsoever,  wouldnt help set up a tent, or carry water, or cook, or clean, just sat there and sulked.   His Mom had made him join scouts she thought it would be good for him, an only child, to make friends and learn to do things for himself. 

 On his second or third campout his patrol leader told him, in front of everyone, that in his patrol everyone did some work and if the scout wanted to be a part of the patrol he needed to help out.  Scout refused.  

 PL studied him for a while, and walked to the scouts tent, came back with the scouts gear, a spare tent, and the scouts share of the food.  Dumping it at the scouts feet he said " then you areon your own,  stay where we can see you, and if you change your mind let me know."

 

 Sometimes you just have to drop the hammer on some people. Life is not a free ride. 

 

Each case is different but you get the idea.

 

On the swearing/cussing  I can only repeat what others have said, It the leaders SM, ASM SPL, must  set the example then and only then will their corrections carry any weight !

 

We had a scout who was raised in a home where the f- bomb was used twice every sentence, by everyone. To him it was just normal.

 

When  asked  to refrain from using " colorful" words at a meeting, he asked why.  He was told that he was wearing our scout shirt, with our troop number and we were being judged by  others for his language.    He seemed shocked, but he did try to keep his speech clean. at least when he was with the troop.