Case Studies: Is Training Really Working?

[RichardB]

Interesting thread.   Anyone ever think to reference the Sweet 16 of BSA as a planning checklist?   http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Resources/sweet16.aspx Might be something to review and point out to those who haven't used it before.   

[Gone]

Interesting thread.   Anyone ever think to reference the Sweet 16 of BSA as a planning checklist?   http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Resources/sweet16.aspx Might be something to review and point out to those who haven't used it before.   

 

Exactly! But I think the problem that both @@JoeBob and @@Stosh point out is that finding anything from BSA in one, definitive place is nearly impossible. Information management is problem for them. They started this news portal to aggregate BSA information but even that is not as clear and concise as it should be.

 

What is sorely needed at BSA is a information management audit where professionals can come in and help them consolidate and manage their content and how to present it to the public. Too many tentacles on this octopus.

[Stosh]

Little more than NADA....http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/11/18/scouts-with-autism/

 

Seriously???  12 pages???  Is that the best we've got?  PDF Format, no links anywhere.  This is old web tech at its best.

[Twocubdad]

Andy's mom hit on this awhile back and everyone sorta blew past her. But I think it goes to the heart of the issue:

 

Why the hell are you doing a day hike in avalanche country?

 

When did that become the expectation of the program? When did the "Promise of Scout" become that our outings would look like a Mountain Dew commercial? Back in the day, we were perfectly happy to hike a mile or so into the woods, set up camp and spend the weekend hanging around the fire with our mates tending a big stew or chili over a day or two. No more. And we have raised those expectations ourselves.

 

We've got a big troop with a good number of volunteers. We are also fortunate to be in a demographic where folks have a good bit of disposable income and vacation days. I've got two ASMs with shooting sports certification. Another has all the aquatics training. We've got a certified climbing instructor. Several of us are simply old school outdoorsmen.

 

But that's still not enough. The backpackers in the troop complain we don't hike far or fast enough. The climbers insist we climb Table Rock -- hell, I don't want to DRIVE up table rock! I know what Stosh is going to say, but these guys typically don't have the support in their patrols for this level of "adventure". Anytime someone brings up a big HA trip, the other three-quarters of the guys moan. It's not that we're not doing these activities -- we typically do one or two of each every year -- rather that for the climbing, shooting, backpacking or whitewater junkies it's never enough.

 

So my solution? GO DO IT YOURSELF! We've taught you the basics. We showed you how to pack a pack, put on a climbing harness and handle a canoe. You want to ride your mountain bike down the side of El Capitan? Go for it! It's called vacation. But for $100 a year, we're not obligated to scratch your every itch.

 

How does this relate to the OP? Because it's not a training issue, it's a program issue. We don't need to require -- or even offer -- training for ice climbing. The troop down the street doesn't need to be routinely involved in these exotic high adventure trips. We need a program reality check. Right now, we're dying the death of 1,000 cuts at the hand of Richard B. BSA is hemorrhaging money paying the lawyers and judgements. BSA is at fault in much of this. But it's not the health and safety guys, it's the marketing people. Look at high adventure articles in Boys' Life. They're selling the sizzle but not providing the steak. Where is the training and the BSA supervision for the "out there" program expectation they create?

 

I think current training is perfect adequate to take Scouts on a routine weekend in the woods, it they take and follow what's offered. But you guys are right, BSA needs to step up it's game when it comes to certification and leadership of HA activities. They could start by looking at the tour plan process and differentiating between a knot-tying weekend on council property vs. more adventurous programs. But those of you who have said it's not just training but experience and maturity are also correct. My climbing guy has spent two years working with the council climbing director getting to the point HE IS COMFORTABLE taking the Scouts out on natural rock. (As a certified instructor, he could basically open the camp's climbing wall for us. Yoohoo! You don't see troops climbing plywood featured in Boys' Life too often.)

 

King for a Day: I've written before that I believe council camping and program operations should look more like guide services; providing competent expertise to units who don't have it in house. Maybe each council or district could organize a "super troop" which specializes in these high adventure programs and can afford to put the time and commitment into trained, competent leadership. They could even come up with a snazzy name for them. How about .... Venture Crews! (But that's another thread.)

[Eagle94-A1]

Exactly! But I think the problem that both @@JoeBob and @@Stosh point out is that finding anything from BSA in one, definitive place is nearly impossible. Information management is problem for them. They started this news portal to aggregate BSA information but even that is not as clear and concise as it should be.

 

What is sorely needed at BSA is a information management audit where professionals can come in and help them consolidate and manage their content and how to present it to the public. Too many tentacles on this octopus.

 

Ok I'm in the information management field, medical librarian to be exact, and I can tell you without a doubt that the search engine on scouting.org is one of the worse I've ever used. It's gotten to the point that I google what ever I'm looking for and add  " and 'Scouting.org" to find whatever  I'm searching for.

 

And a database's search engine must be user friendly.  There is a very good database available through my state's library. But it's not very user friendly. Heck I'm a librarian, can use the jargon to find information, and I still have challenges at time with that database. Hate to think what some of my MDs and RNs have to face, oh wait, that's what I'm for.

[RichardB]

Exactly! But I think the problem that both @@JoeBob and @@Stosh point out is that finding anything from BSA in one, definitive place is nearly impossible. Information management is problem for them. They started this news portal to aggregate BSA information but even that is not as clear and concise as it should be.

 

What is sorely needed at BSA is a information management audit where professionals can come in and help them consolidate and manage their content and how to present it to the public. Too many tentacles on this octopus.

 

Again, solutions, maybe not the ones YOU want are being worked on in the digital world.  Until then, might suggest that a simple one stop solution is to pick up, read a handbook and follow it.   Pick up a Field Book if you are feeling edgy.  Leaders guides developed by the HAB are great as well if your unit HA plan includes similar stuff.   

 

Want a one stop shop to help you plan an event:   http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx 

[Gone]

@@Twocubdad, remember several of these examples given were of regular, everyday scout events like a day hike. The leaders STILL were unprepared. I know leaders who couldn't tell you what poison ivy looks like, or cook an egg, or how to put out a grade fire. These are all related to training (or lack thereof) and directly related to everyday camping units do.

 

There's two things we established early on. First, there needs to be basic training everyone gets as part of just doing the outdoor program (aka, everyday camping). Seconds, for those units that do HA, there needs to be additional training to get the, prepared to manage, plan and execute those events.

 

So I think we are in agreement.

[Gone]

Again, solutions, maybe not the ones YOU want are being worked on in the digital world.  Until then, might suggest that a simple one stop solution is to pick up, read a handbook and follow it.   Pick up a Field Book if you are feeling edgy.  Leaders guides developed by the HAB are great as well if your unit HA plan includes similar stuff.   

 

Want a one stop shop to help you plan an event:   http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx

 

Where does any of this mention how to resupply your crew on a long distance trek? Where does it mention how to plan a canoe trip?

 

I think we've pointed out there are resources that do various things, but it's an Easter egg hunt to find what you need. Those who are interested and truly want to know can find this stuff, but that's NOT the majority of the adults out there. BSA could be doing better in this regard.

[SeattlePioneer]

<<Andy's mom hit on this awhile back and everyone sorta blew past her. But I think it goes to the heart of the issue:

Why the hell are you doing a day hike in avalanche country?>>

 

 

 

Heck,  around here a spring hike in the mountains IS a hike into avalanche country.

 

 

<<But that's still not enough. The backpackers in the troop complain we don't hike far or fast enough. The climbers insist we climb Table Rock -- hell, I don't want to DRIVE up table rock! I know what Stosh is going to say, but these guys typically don't have the support in their patrols for this level of "adventure". Anytime someone brings up a big HA trip, the other three-quarters of the guys moan. It's not that we're not doing these activities -- we typically do one or two of each every year -- rather that for the climbing, shooting, backpacking or whitewater junkies it's never enough.

So my solution? GO DO IT YOURSELF!>>

 

 

 

If you are talking about high adventure,  you are talking about activities that involve the risk of DEATH or serious injury,  in my opinion.

 

A good many of the rock and ice climbers in the Pacific Northwest are veterans of demanding Scout programs. Jim Whittaker,  the first American to summit Mt Everest circa 1962 won his climbing spurs in Boy Scouts.

 

I again suggest that if you are talking about high adventure,  training merely leaves you a beginner in the field,  perhaps qualified to go on a easy high adventure activity,  but unqualified to lead such an activity.

 

Just as an example,  Kayak cruising on salt water is a popular activity around here,  but few people are experienced in what to do should their kayak be dumped.  You can't roll it upright and other untrained people aren't going to be of much help.  Throw in wind, waves and cold water temperatures, currents, rip tides and darkness  and you are in a desperate situation. Yet rank beginners go out cruising in kayaks quite commonly. 

 

One of the attractions of high adventure activities for leaders is that the decisions you make COUNT.  People are putting their lives in your hands.  Are they making a foolish decision by doing so,  or do you really know your stuff?

 

The first real accident is likely to separate the sheep from the goats on that issue.

 

 

[MattR]

Let's make training for outdoor adventure the way merit badges should be for scouts. Adults like power point slides as much as the boys. Adults need more than a day's worth of training, just like the boys. One on one training while actually doing it is fun and exactly what the boys like to do. Set that up for the adults and training wouldn't be the big dread. Share some of that youthful awe of learning something new with the adults and they might want to volunteer more often.

 

Next, connect people with experience from outside of scouting with those that want it. Instead of having official BSA training (other than for safety) use the local community to find experts. I've found spelunking expertise and climbing expertise outside of scouting. And connect them long enough such that those learning will at least keep doing it and be able to take their troop out.

 

That means people would have to commit to it. The harder the adventure the more commitment. If nobody wants to commit then there's no high adventure trip. Backpacking requires 3 weekends and one evening. Climbing is a lot more. River rafting is similar. People can decide what they want to do.

[fred johnson]

Let's make training for outdoor adventure the way merit badges should be for scouts. Adults like power point slides as much as the boys. Adults need more than a day's worth of training, just like the boys. One on one training while actually doing it is fun and exactly what the boys like to do. Set that up for the adults and training wouldn't be the big dread. Share some of that youthful awe of learning something new with the adults and they might want to volunteer more often.

 

Next, connect people with experience from outside of scouting with those that want it. Instead of having official BSA training (other than for safety) use the local community to find experts. I've found spelunking expertise and climbing expertise outside of scouting. And connect them long enough such that those learning will at least keep doing it and be able to take their troop out.

 

I very much agree.  I call it mentoring.  You call it what you want.