Case Studies: Is Training Really Working?

[Gone]

So why train adults?  How can they provide opportunities for the boys on something they know nothing at all about?

This is the crux of the argument about better adult training. I would add "How can we keep them safe?" to the list of arguments.

[Stosh]

@@DuctTape, but BSA holds the unit lead accountable for the safety of the unit, just like a guide or tour operator. So the argument that the SM (or unit as a whole) are unpaid guides is correct. The onus for planning and executing intelligent activities based on an expected level of competant expertise is on the unit and the SM specifically.

 

How many SM's are knowledgeable about whitewater rafting?  How many troops take whitewater rafting trips?  How does this work?  There's got to be a balance out there somewhere where the SM can help the boys push the envelop without having to be totally responsible for the process.

 

That would mean that the SM whose only experience in camping is his basic training in BSA material shouldn't be doing much more than the basic plop camping.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Stosh

[andysmom]

I am hoping to clear up some confusion about my previous postings.

 

 

 

I think that non direct contact leaders need to be re certified as well.

Why?

 

When I read the initial post, I thought Bad Wolf was referring to all training.  As a CM and AC I think about advancement.and I think it is important for committee members to be retrained every several years so they know what the changes are to the policy.

 

 

 

"I am just seeing alot of skills training and no thought as to "why" we are going on hikes and campouts for example.

Scouting is not supposed to teach scouts how to live in the woods, the outdoor program is one method of achieving the main objectives."

 

When I posted that, again, I did not realize that the point of the thread was about skills training.

 

Obviously the scouting program is intended to be run out doors.  That is what interests boys, if it interests them they will want to participate.  When they participate they will learn.

When I was referred to the 1911 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, I might point out that we are not living in 1911 anymore.  "The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness."  Not teaching a boy how to live in the woods.  The outdoor program is by far the biggest way we teach that because it is what interests the boys, again, if it interests them they will want to participate.  When they participate they learn.

 

When BadWolf pointed out that the point of the thread was specifically about skills training, I bowed out.  I have done BALOO, the SM specific classroom training and have been to UOS many years. I have completed all the training offered online and am the recipient of all my husband's "practice" trainings), but my position in the troop does not require me to take do skills training so I really don't have much to offer to the discussion.  For the record, I am a proponent of having the best trained leaders we can, I have continued to read because I am interested in how everyone feels is the best way to achieve that.

[Gone]

How many SM's are knowledgeable about whitewater rafting?  How many troops take whitewater rafting trips?  How does this work?  There's got to be a balance out there somewhere where the SM can help the boys push the envelop without having to be totally responsible for the process.

 

That would mean that the SM whose only experience in camping is his basic training in BSA material shouldn't be doing much more than the basic plop camping.

 

If an SM's unit wants to do white water (or some other high adventure for which he is not fully trained or has experience) I would expect he do the following:

• Make sure the BSA Sweet 16 is being applied.
• Tour Plans and other paperwork and basic training requirements of adults is accounted for.
• Make sure advanced training requirements (WRFA) are accounted for.
• Ensure that any special training required by BSA (e.g., canoeing, kayaking, etc.) for the boys and leaders is also accounted for.
• Works with the PLC to engage an "expert" either within the troop, district or council. If need be, get an outside expert (e.g. REI, Sierra Club, etc.). This expert would help in the planning and perhaps even the execution of the trek/trip.

[Gone]

When BadWolf pointed out that the point of the thread was specifically about skills training, I bowed out.  I have done BALOO, the SM specific classroom training and have been to UOS many years. I have completed all the training offered online and am the recipient of all my husband's "practice" trainings), but my position in the troop does not require me to take do skills training so I really don't have much to offer to the discussion.  For the record, I am a proponent of having the best trained leaders we can, I have continued to read because I am interested in how everyone feels is the best way to achieve that.

 

Remember, the intent of the thread is for us to design what training *WE* think leaders should have, not what is currently required. You have all the training you "need" you say, but do you have all the skills you would need to call upon if you were on an outdoor trek? If someone is just a committee member, then there is probably other training they need that is not being offered (financial mgmt, operations mgmt, fundraising, etc.).

 

In other words, what training should leaders have? What training should adults attending events have? What training gaps are there (see the OP)? 

 

I agree that there are outdoor and indoor components to what training adults need. We can surely explore what non-outdoor training is needed (special needs mgmt, patrol method, TC mgmt, etc.).

[fred johnson]

@@fred johnson interesting comments. The point of the thread was to find out how we would redesign training to make sure adults avoid situations noted in the original post.

 

Any input there?

 

Statistically ... I'm not sure the number and severity of incidents warrants a redesign.  Still, training can always be improved.  

 

Simple stuff ...

 

... Every SM & ASM should have current youth protection, CPR and first aid training.  WFA too for more aggressive trips.  

 

.... All BSA training courses should be available online.  Online sets a consistent tone.  Too often BSA volunteers add their own "flavor" and that person's presence allows them to emphasize and de-emphasize differently than BSA.  

 

As for the rest, I think a significant shift needs to occur.  Mentorship.  To be a "trained" leader, you should attend a few other troop's meetings and at least one camp out from another troop.  To keep your training current, you should attend another troop's meeting at least once a year and maybe another troop's camp out maybe every two, three or four years.  It's about cross-pollination, opening up communication, seeing other ideas and getting to know other leaders that can help you become better.

 

The district training committee could recommend who should visit who.  For example, some troops and leaders will be good mentors.  In other cases, those who need to visit might end up being a good mentor for the unit they visit.  

 

I also think this addresses a very dysfunctional BSA concept.  Unit commissioners.  BSA commissioners don't work.  Period.  The whole program needs to be redesigned.  IMHO, you could merge the mentor-ship aspects of training and unit commissioners into a single very effective program. 

 

 

 

As for "treks", the only way I really learned how to plan one well was by being with someone more experienced as they planned and coordinated.  I think trek planning could uses some resources and/or check sheets.  ... BUT ... it would be useful to say "We're going on a canoe trip in four months" and at roundtable be able to connect with another leader who can help mentor you through how to have a great trip. 

 

 

We're doing this now for Eagle projects.  Every project is to have a district assigned Eagle coach.  Why not scout leaders too ?  You submit a tour plan, here's your trip mentor.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by fred johnson

[andysmom]

There is another thing to consider, you have to get people to take the training.

Even if they know it is available, even if you make it inexpensive, heck, even if you offer to give it to them in their own home, there are people who won't do it.

I would trust nearly everyone on this board to take my son on a trek because you recognize the need to be trained and you want to be trained.

What do we do about those "one hour a week"ers who don't care enough to get trained?

 

I know I said I was bowing out, but this is a problem in our area.

[JoeBob]

@Badwolf :

Let us know when you get this all distilled and are ready to start the petition drive.

 

https://www.change.org/start-a-petition?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GST_USER_GEOT2_SCHT1_online_petition

[Stosh]

So a boy shows up from Webelos cross-over and the parents approach the SM and inform him/her that their boy is autistic.  

 

While that is all well and good, what skills does the SM have other than looking up autism on Google and finding out there are millions of variations to consider.  The parents reassure you they will be there 24/7, but even they have to sleep sometime.   How is this going to impact the troop?  How will things have to be rearranged to make it work?

 

So, what does BSA have to support a SM in this situation?  Last time I checked it was NADA.

 

Okay, the boy is ADD, the next boy is ADHD, the next boy is deaf, the next boy has Asperger's, and the list goes on and on.  And that doesn't even begin to cover the old run-of-the-mill brat that occasionally comes on the scene for a while.

 

Sometimes maturity can make a difference in the SM, sometimes experience especially if the SM has had a special needs child of his own.  But one can't always expect that from every SM out there.

[Gone]

@Badwolf :

Let us know when you get this all distilled and are ready to start the petition drive.

 

https://www.change.org/start-a-petition?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GST_USER_GEOT2_SCHT1_online_petition

 

Actually @@JoeBob, I was putting together our unit's internal training program. You know I have nothing to do with district and council, so we are putting together our own training curriculum for leaders and youth. We will then go out and staff those courses and offer them up to our adults and youth.

 

I was using this thread to see what other great ideas folks have. Some great stuff here.

 

So a boy shows up from Webelos cross-over and the parents approach the SM and inform him/her that their boy is autistic.  

 

While that is all well and good, what skills does the SM have other than looking up autism on Google and finding out there are millions of variations to consider.  The parents reassure you they will be there 24/7, but even they have to sleep sometime.   How is this going to impact the troop?  How will things have to be rearranged to make it work?

 

So, what does BSA have to support a SM in this situation?  Last time I checked it was NADA.

 

Okay, the boy is ADD, the next boy is ADHD, the next boy is deaf, the next boy has Asperger's, and the list goes on and on.  And that doesn't even begin to cover the old run-of-the-mill brat that occasionally comes on the scene for a while.

 

Sometimes maturity can make a difference in the SM, sometimes experience especially if the SM has had a special needs child of his own.  But one can't always expect that from every SM out there.

 

@@Stosh, from BSA the SM will get nothing in this area...though he should. There are plenty of resources out there that BSA could partner with to get this training in to the hands of the SMs and other leaders.

 

Outside of BSA there are several organizations that offer distance learning, downloads, webinars and other free courses on how to manage kids on the spectrum. Admittedly the SM would have to do some digging. Yet another reason BSA should be working with these groups to 1) avoid re-inventing the wheel, and 2) getting the resources in the leaders' hands fast rather than moving at BSA's usual glacial pace...and then getting it totally wrong.

[Stosh]

Actually @@JoeBob, I was putting together our unit's internal training program. You know I have nothing to do with district and council, so we are putting together our own training curriculum for leaders and youth. We will then go out and staff those courses and offer them up to our adults and youth.

 

I was using this thread to see what other great ideas folks have. Some great stuff here.

 

 

@@Stosh, from BSA the SM will get nothing in this area...though he should. There are plenty of resources out there that BSA could partner with to get this training in to the hands of the SMs and other leaders.

 

Outside of BSA there are several organizations that offer distance learning, downloads, webinars and other free courses on how to manage kids on the spectrum. Admittedly the SM would have to do some digging. Yet another reason BSA should be working with these groups to 1) avoid re-inventing the wheel, and 2) getting the resources in the leaders' hands fast rather than moving at BSA's usual glacial pace...and then getting it totally wrong.

 

@

That's my point exactly.  If BSA is going to be the servant leadership guru's one would think that they would be able to provide a dozen links for a SM to reference in a situation like this.  Sure the parents are going to help but that doesn't give the SM a basic understanding of the situation he/she is up against.  The resources don't have to be BSA, heck, one of the references might even be Wikipedia (gag, wretch), but if it helps, so be it.  It wouldn't take much on the part of BSA to have those references linked into it's non-existent resource center for scouters and scouts to reference.

 

Let's face it, these situations are common enough in scouting that BSA should have recognized it as part of troop life in a lot of troops and reacted by now.

[SeattlePioneer]

Unfortunately,  "high adventure" is about stuff where there is a serious risk of death or serious injury if people don't make good decisions.

 

 

And you need to be able to make good decision on the fly,  when the ---- is hitting the fan.

 

If you are doing a canoe trip on a white water river,  what will you DO if a a  canoe gets caught in a sweeper and is overturned,  dumping boys in the water? 

 

What do you DO if you are out on a spring hike and you notice that avalanches are starting up in your area? 

 

What do you DO if you are on a winter snowshoe hike in windy,  20 degree weather and your youngest Boy Scout,  on his first outing with the troop,  is missing?

 

 

What do you DO?  And what might you have done to avoid the problem?

 

I again suggest that if you have extensive training but no experience in participating in outdoor adventures, let alone leading them,  you are best characterized as a beginner.  You are probably qualified to go along on such an outing,  but not to lead it.

[Gone]

Unfortunately,  "high adventure" is about stuff where there is a serious risk of death or serious injury if people don't make good decisions.

 

 

Good post, but I edited down to this sentence for a reason: In the OP a few of those who got in trouble were out on simple camp outs. Day hike with not enough water, no water source, no map, no GPS, they split their group, no food, etc. There are about a dozen or more violations of trek safely right there, and that should be basic training for any adult....not just those leading the activity.

 

I suspect you agree on that point, and that is one of the points of the feedback so far: There needs to be more in-depth basic training for leader. Even if you don't have orienteering experience, a leader can follow trek safely, the ten essentials and learn how to use a map and compass to avoid getting in a position where the SAR team had to be deployed.

[RichardB]

Boys and girls, reading the last couple of pages has made a light bulb come on.

The variety of specialized information needed to cover every type of HA that we want to expose our boys to is not readily available in all communities.  But the internet is.

 

Video tutorials for almost everything are online.  Want to replace the ABS sensor in a 1999 Volvo V70r?  Google it.

 

BSA should sponsor a set of multi-media training for the different types of HA and another set for basic scout skills.

Photos, concise text, and short video snippets could do a good job of communicating the subtle, but crucial, information needed for success.  Treat it like a Wiki and have another expert update the info every few years.  Have a returning troop add photos.  And have it linked to important BSA pages so that leaders and youth can find it.

 

I think that many volunteers join scouting expecting to learn and/or improve their skills.  I know that I expected to pick up advanced techniques for some of my skills and learn new things from being an SM.  The training is just not there.  I have learned how to train myself.

 

These interesting and informative tutorials could even serve as a tool to coax troops to do things that otherwise they would hesitate to attempt.  Adventure sells scouting.

 

This is actually a work in progress.....Not exactly as described.  Stay tuned.....

[RichardB]

So a boy shows up from Webelos cross-over and the parents approach the SM and inform him/her that their boy is autistic.  

 

While that is all well and good, what skills does the SM have other than looking up autism on Google and finding out there are millions of variations to consider.  The parents reassure you they will be there 24/7, but even they have to sleep sometime.   How is this going to impact the troop?  How will things have to be rearranged to make it work?

 

So, what does BSA have to support a SM in this situation?  Last time I checked it was NADA.

 

Okay, the boy is ADD, the next boy is ADHD, the next boy is deaf, the next boy has Asperger's, and the list goes on and on.  And that doesn't even begin to cover the old run-of-the-mill brat that occasionally comes on the scene for a while.

 

Sometimes maturity can make a difference in the SM, sometimes experience especially if the SM has had a special needs child of his own.  But one can't always expect that from every SM out there.

 

Little more than NADA....http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/11/18/scouts-with-autism/