Case Studies: Is Training Really Working?

[eagle77]

When I hired in as an AS in 1981, and was promoted to SM a year later, I had something like 3,000 miles of backpacking experience and modest amounts of glacier and rock climbing experience with the Seattle Mountaineers. Also a goodly amount of snowshoeing, cross country skiing, and rowing experience, trips and camping. I was 31 at the time.

 

You don't really need formal training to master any of these sports. Experience and reading is satisfactory, in my view.

 

The Seattle Mountaineers has a whole series of classes available, including their Basic Climbing and Intermediate climbing classes, which are excellent. But not really necessary if one goes out and does the necessary trips with experienced people who will teach you or you can learn from.

 

 

   How many SM and ASMs do you think have that kind of experience? What should be done with all the others that have no outdoor time whatsoever and basically are in the position they are in because they are the only ones willing to do it? Do you think BSA is going to say no experience no position? Hell no, that's where much of this training comes from.  Granted to some it may be boring, but to others its something brand new.
 

[Stosh]

Then there's the problem of teaching a class on how to conduct High Adventure.  Is there going to be a class on high adventure whitewater canoeing?  Then another on BWCA lake canoeing and portaging?  Then another on backpacking Philmont?  Then there's the RAGBRAI bike ride across Iowa trip.  Then.... Where does it begin and where does it end.

 

My training for BWCA?  I had my brother take me.  He was a charter bud driver and 2-3 times a summer he would get an opportunity to go up to BWCA with a group.  The outfitters furnished everything including how to pack and what to take.  He took a bunch of us scouters up to BWCA and showed us the ropes.  It was all we needed to get ready for a BWCA trek and we took along another troop to show them the ropes too.  They were convinced we were seasoned pros.

 

It doesn't take but one outing to learn a lot from those who know what they're doing.

 

How does one put that into a curriculum?  I haven't the foggiest idea.

 

My Dutch Oven skills come from doing the biddy hen, coffee klatch recipe exchange gatherings where we learned new skill and techniques for the next outing.  If I have to sit through another hamburger cooked in an orange peal or a bacon and egg breakfast made in a paper bag, I'm gonna kill myself.

 

Of course lashing a bridge to nowhere is always the highlight of my weekend high adventure.

 

High Adventure?  Summer camp, for sure.  As a SM of a boy-led troop, that has to be the most boring week of my life.  The young boys love it or I wouldn't do it.  Last year I took SM fundamentals just to beat the boredom.  It didn't work.

 

So what's on the agenda for next week's summer camp?  I'm taking my kayak and hopefully the waterfront people can train me in sea kayaking and I can take the boys to the Apostle Islands for HA.  I'm not taking the boys unless I know I can teach them before we leave.

 

It's too bad it takes that much effort on the part of the SM to work out his own training because BSA has nothing to offer at a higher level of scouting.  But that shouldn't be a big problem, boys drop out before they get a chance at HA anyway.  Or do they drop out because the SM's can't offer them HA.  Can't remember which excuse it is....

[qwazse]

Here's what we have trouble with: expecting from training (e.g., anything from my simple minded RT exercises to Powderhorn) what only comes from discipleship (what @@Stosh and @@SeattlePioneer described).

Edited June 17, 2015 by qwazse

[eagle77]

Then there's the problem of teaching a class on how to conduct High Adventure.  Is there going to be a class on high adventure whitewater canoeing?  Then another on BWCA lake canoeing and portaging?  Then another on backpacking Philmont?  Then there's the RAGBRAI bike ride across Iowa trip.  Then.... Where does it begin and where does it end.

 

My training for BWCA?  I had my brother take me.  He was a charter bud driver and 2-3 times a summer he would get an opportunity to go up to BWCA with a group.  The outfitters furnished everything including how to pack and what to take.  He took a bunch of us scouters up to BWCA and showed us the ropes.  It was all we needed to get ready for a BWCA trek and we took along another troop to show them the ropes too.  They were convinced we were seasoned pros.

 

It doesn't take but one outing to learn a lot from those who know what they're doing.

 

How does one put that into a curriculum?  I haven't the foggiest idea.

 

My Dutch Oven skills come from doing the biddy hen, coffee klatch recipe exchange gatherings where we learned new skill and techniques for the next outing.  If I have to sit through another hamburger cooked in an orange peal or a bacon and egg breakfast made in a paper bag, I'm gonna kill myself.

 

Of course lashing a bridge to nowhere is always the highlight of my weekend high adventure.

 

High Adventure?  Summer camp, for sure.  As a SM of a boy-led troop, that has to be the most boring week of my life.  The young boys love it or I wouldn't do it.  Last year I took SM fundamentals just to beat the boredom.  It didn't work.

 

So what's on the agenda for next week's summer camp?  I'm taking my kayak and hopefully the waterfront people can train me in sea kayaking and I can take the boys to the Apostle Islands for HA.  I'm not taking the boys unless I know I can teach them before we leave.

 

It's too bad it takes that much effort on the part of the SM to work out his own training because BSA has nothing to offer at a higher level of scouting.  But that shouldn't be a big problem, boys drop out before they get a chance at HA anyway.  Or do they drop out because the SM's can't offer them HA.  Can't remember which excuse it is....

 

   My second year as SM I took two crews to Northern Tier, my expeirence, none.  In fact to be honest I had never done any type of HA before this. I had only canoed the local river on occasion but had never done lake canoeing. Which I'm sure you would agree is different. Asked at RT if anyone had done the NT recently or at all. No takers. Sat down with the leaders and scouts attending and discussed what we felt would be needed in preperation for this trip. At this time I allowed the scouts to take over and list what they felt we would need to do before going. Phyisical workouts for upper body strength, swimming MB, canoeing MB, at least two prep trips to test the skills we had. Did I learn all this by doing a trip before? No I learned and used many of the ideas and things that I had from other trainings. I would never knock having expeirence, but should one never try? Oh and the trip was a complete success. After that trip the boys decided to do an HA trip every other year. Since then we have been to Sea Base, Texas, back to NT, and this summer are planning on backpacking the old HA area in Maine. What I think would be helpful is if there was some type of training that would cover some of the HA parts of scouting, not actually doing it but what is needed or recommended before taking one on.

 

   Granted I do not believe that every SM has to offer HA, but wouldn't it be helpful to at least give them an idea of what it is all about?  What I think some of us keep forgetting is that some of these leaders out there have zero outdoor time. Maybe a seed can be planted, but I feel only if you have the proper soil (training) for it to take root.

[Gone]

So @@Stosh and others bring up a good point: When is the expectation of being trained too much?

 

To stay on the OP as much as possible I will offer this:

 

- To avoid issue as outlined in the OP, BSA needs to update their basic training to ensure all leaders have the skill set to avoid such problems.

 

- High adventure would be an ADVANCED training. Ice climbing, 50 milers, kayaking, advanced portaging, etc., require different training. In this case BSA should offer this training to help leaders make good decisions. Experience, while preferred, can't always be a pre-requisite. Remember, most HA camps have rangers embedded in the crew.

 

It's a great point parents don't want untrained leaders. I want someone who know the difference between Class 1 and Class 5 rapids, or someone who knows a 5.10 finger hold is for advanced climbers.

 

More focused BSA training can help that.

[Stosh]

@@eagle77

 

And yet you relied on others who had the expertise to fill in the gaps.  As I mentioned my brother the bus driver (BSA ASM from another council) went with groups that had NO EXPERIENCE and were generally college students out on a lark.  The outfitters basically were paid babysitters who kept them out of trouble.  

 

Yes, if one does not have the experience and training but has the heart to go, then stick with the professionals and rely on their experience whether they be BSA outfitters like NT, Sea Base or Philmont.  If you are going to go the Yellowstone or Black Hills backcountry, then you are on your own.

 

By the way, the cost of a NT expedition is twice the price we paid by doing it ourselves.  One always has to take into consideration that experience comes at a cost.  As a matter of fact, our BWCA trek of 9 days cost considerably less than BSA summer camp.  Gas to get there, food, entry permits, and boat registration.  The troop I was with at the time was adult-led so none of the boys learned how to do it for another troop should they ever become SM's themselves.

[Stosh]

So @@Stosh and others bring up a good point: When is the expectation of being trained too much?

 

 

Along with being overly trained in areas that some scouters don't need, i.e. review of skills every other year at a cost to the participants or units, we have the under trained scouters that have taken everything BSA has to offer and it's not enough.

 

So where's the balance for BSA to consider.

 

Presently if someone in BSA doesn't have the skills to teach the welding MB, outside expertise is solicited by the units and/or council to fulfill that need for the boys.  This is great, but what about the solicitations for the adults to fulfill the need for specific training?  As @ points out a lot of HA treks have rangers or other experts that re embedded in the crews to assist with appropriate knowledge and safety.  

 

Well, as I mentioned before, we have MBC's that are not fully registered but trained (YPT) resources for scouts to get their MB's filled out.  What about some kind of MBC's/Resource/Trainers/Rangers for Scouters who want their boys to have HA experience but can't do it themselves due to lack of training or experience?

 

Scenario #1: My troop wants to go to BWCA, I've never been there before.  Old Joe SM who used to be with a troop in the council is loaded with experience.  He's on the Basic Underlying Lower Level Systematic High Intensive Training List (You can work that acronym out for yourself).  So Old Joe comes in once a month for a year and trains your troop how to get ready, prepare, and execute a trip to the BWCA.  Then as a treat for Old Joe, he goes along at the unit's expense to make sure all the little details are covered.  It is important that the boys pay particular attention to everything so that in a couple of years they can do this on their own because Old Joe isn't going to be around forever.

 

Scenario #2: My troop wants to go on the RAGBRAI Bicycle trek across Iowa.  The boys all know how to bike but his is a really big endeavor that will have about 8,000 other people in the group.  Bill Businessman owns Billy's Bicycle Boutique and has a ton of knowledge and expertise on such things because he goes every year anyway.  His name is on the Basic Underlying Lower.... List as well.  He's registered like a MBC and has YPT training to work with the boys.

 

So, will this type of "program" work to handle the High Adventure end of "training" or lack thereof?  I as SM would a bit more comfortable offering up such HA activities to the boys if I knew I had resources that would be able to temporarily fill in and work with the troop to see to it that such things happened for the boys.

 

Maybe if such resources were there, the need for specialized specific training of scouters wouldn't be necessary?  Just thinking out loud. 

[JoeBob]

Boys and girls, reading the last couple of pages has made a light bulb come on.

The variety of specialized information needed to cover every type of HA that we want to expose our boys to is not readily available in all communities.  But the internet is.

 

Video tutorials for almost everything are online.  Want to replace the ABS sensor in a 1999 Volvo V70r?  Google it.

 

BSA should sponsor a set of multi-media training for the different types of HA and another set for basic scout skills.

Photos, concise text, and short video snippets could do a good job of communicating the subtle, but crucial, information needed for success.  Treat it like a Wiki and have another expert update the info every few years.  Have a returning troop add photos.  And have it linked to important BSA pages so that leaders and youth can find it.

 

I think that many volunteers join scouting expecting to learn and/or improve their skills.  I know that I expected to pick up advanced techniques for some of my skills and learn new things from being an SM.  The training is just not there.  I have learned how to train myself.

 

These interesting and informative tutorials could even serve as a tool to coax troops to do things that otherwise they would hesitate to attempt.  Adventure sells scouting.

[perdidochas]

Leaders need to be trained in the program, not just how to cook in the woods.

 

Speaking as a trained ASM and MC (and WDL and TDL), i learned a lot more about the program than about cooking in the woods from training.  I do agree that should be the priority, but on the other hand, IMHO, a scout leader should be able to cook in the woods. A Scout leader should be an accomplished camper/outdoorsman--at least as good as most First Class Scouts. 

Edited June 17, 2015 by perdidochas

[perdidochas]

Not disagreeing.

I am just seeing alot of skills training and no thought as to "why" we are going on hikes and campouts for example.

Scouting is not supposed to teach scouts how to live in the woods, the outdoor program is one method of achieving the main objectives.

I disagree. I think the outdoor program is essential. It's not just "one method" it is "the method." 

[Stosh]

@@JoeBob

 

And so, how is this better than the droning PowerPoint presenter at the council office?  

 

Maybe if all these resources are out there, BSA can start working on making these things readily available to scouters to consider when they want to move their troops to the next level.  Instead all we get is silence.

 

Web site with links to say, canoeing adventures, hiking adventures, etc. all in one place that BSA has vetted as worthwhile.  Kind of a "cut to the chase" kind of approach.  BSA used to promote good literature for the boys to read, maybe they need to get back into the business of promoting good websites for scouters to learn.

[mattman578]

JoeBob you are correct there are a lot of YouTube videos out there to show you how to do stuff but like anything you need to know your source.  Now there is a guy YouTube who is a lot of fun and puts on some really good vids that are not only entertaining but very informative.   I emailed him once to ask a question about something and he emailed me back the next day and told me were I could find the video.  I use his vids when I am teaching my scouts about something.  I have attached a video he did on having a morning constitutional  in the woods

 

I think the BSA should contract him to do all the training vids you were talking about

[DuctTape]

I agree with Stosh that other "experts" can and should be used as resources. I will add that scouting adventures at their core are led by the boy leader. Built into the boy led and patrol method is (or should be) a continuum of adventure led by the boys as their experience and knowledge grows. A patrol might want to go on some extreme type of adventure, but to get there they will need to plan a series of smaller adventures to build the knowledge and experience of the patrol and the boy leaders. The SM role is not to be a "wilderness guide", that is the job of the boy leader. The SM is there as a resource for the patrol. Some might say that the boys "cant do xyz, so how can they lead the trip?" My immediate response is then what level are they capable of, and encourage them to start there. Crawl, walk, run. This is Scouting, otherwise it is just a paid guide service staffed by unpaid guides.

[Stosh]

For some the role of the adults is to maintain the overall "vision" of the program for the boys.

 

Others like me view the role of the adults as resources for opportunities.  I am constantly talking about previous treks, trips, adventures my boys have gone on in the past.  I create many opportunities for the boys to consider.  about 90% go unnoticed, but a few get traction.  If the boys want to canoe, No problem.  Boys want to whitewater kayak, no problem.  Boys want to bike ride/trek, no problem,  The  boys want to backpack Yellowstone, no problem.  Boys want to rock climb or spelunk, Sorry, I don't do caves and the second rung on the ladder is my limit.    I've been trained in rescues from heights and depths so I can do it in an emergency situation, but I'm never going to do it for "fun".  Here's where the secondary, temporary, expertise can step in and work with the boys.

 

@@DuctTape is on the money with this training is not necessarily for just scouters, but more importantly for the boys to gain experience.  If the SM gains from it, so be it, but that's not the main objective.  It's important to build a reservoir of experience among the boys and constantly reinforce it because the older boys will be aging out and need to pass on that information to the next generation of scouts.  

 

It's a bit like service projects the boys plan.  They might need to do a dozen of them, but when the time comes for the Eagle Project, it's just another walk in the park woods.  

 

So why train adults?  How can they provide opportunities for the boys on something they know nothing at all about?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Stosh

[Gone]

@@DuctTape, but BSA holds the unit lead accountable for the safety of the unit, just like a guide or tour operator. So the argument that the SM (or unit as a whole) are unpaid guides is correct. The onus for planning and executing intelligent activities based on an expected level of competant expertise is on the unit and the SM specifically.

 

That may not be ideal, but it's reality.