Case Studies: Is Training Really Working?

[walk in the woods]

 

I think it would be beneficial to have different "tiers" of training.  (Basic first aide a requirement before wilderness first aide. etc)

 

I think this would be an interesting idea to explore.  Maybe something like:

 

ASM: Complete current BSA training (YPT, SM Specific, IOLS, all the online *-ONs and Weather)

SM: ASM for at least two years, ARC/AHA First Aid/AED/CPR, NWS Weather Spotter

HA Crew Leader: SM requirements plus Wilderness FA, PowderHorn, activity specific (e.g. American Canoe Association for water, others?)

[Gone]

A few comments for conversation's sake...

 

Let's take a step back from all of the "adventure preparedness" stuff and think about the last district roundtable when before the breakout sessions:

• A bunch of sticks and twine was dumped at each table of scouters and everyone was given 20 minutes to lash together a 1/4 scale pioneering project.

If the adults don't have any pioneering background, what is the purpose of this exercise?

• Scouts got to demonstrate 1st aid, by selecting a scouter, decking him out in stage makeup, and presenting a scenario.

If not hands on, what is learned?

• Someone actually acted out being a scout with Asbergers who asked to get in a car with an older (yet under driving age) scout who was at the wheel.

Other than the obvious, this is more people skill development.

• A compass and flashight was at each table and with headings for a 15 minute night navigation course (inside or outside of the building).

If you don't have the skills this might teach you something assuming there is someone there to teach you. If you have the skills this is likely too rudimentary to be of any use.

• Each table list of plants and animals and 20 minutes for a scavenger hunt (making sure one person at each table had a mobile phone).

Did you go out to find them and simply surf the net?

• Scouters saw where they were a little rusty, but experienced DURING THE MEETING just what fun scouting could be.

One should know in advance if they are rusty or not, no? Map reading does not change much, first aid does. Knowing in advance what the skill demo will be makes it easier to decide if you want to go or not.

 

So, now, think about how the average scouter at your average round-table feels about training if he/she never has any of this as a teezer!

Here, I'm not talking about "drilling" like I mentioned earlier. But just about having good, clean, fun. Enough so that people get to recognize who in the room might be worth sending their boys to for a MB or maybe contacting when time does come to build an adventure.

 

Many people who have more than just the basic training may see this as a complete waste of time. I'd rather have some focused training than be all over the map. I like the suggestion of basic, intermediate and advanced training in detail. Building pioneering projects in miniature may seem like a good idea, but what is the purpose? Couldn't the same purpose we achieved by actually showing those interested how to build those projects to scale?

[Gone]

I think this would be an interesting idea to explore.  Maybe something like:

 

ASM: Complete current BSA training (YPT, SM Specific, IOLS, all the online *-ONs and Weather)

SM: ASM for at least two years, ARC/AHA First Aid/AED/CPR, NWS Weather Spotter

HA Crew Leader: SM requirements plus Wilderness FA, PowderHorn, activity specific (e.g. American Canoe Association for water, others?)

 

Good idea. Problem is using that model the SM must attend all camp outs as he's the guy with the first aid/AED training. Making first first aid/AED mandatory for ASMs. That way the SM could get a break.

[eagle77]

Not disagreeing.

I am just seeing alot of skills training and no thought as to "why" we are going on hikes and campouts for example.

Scouting is not supposed to teach scouts how to live in the woods, the outdoor program is one method of achieving the main objectives.

 

  Problem is there are many leaders out there that do not even know "how" to plan or do a campout. Scouting is an "outdoor" activity. So to me before we can send our scouts into the outdoors we need to train our leaders. What makes it even better is if the leaders share with the boys the different steps required to do certain activities. I think too many time4s some guy watches one of theswe survivalo type shows and just says to himself "sure I can do that".

[Stosh]

If the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared", one must ask, prepared for what?

 

Sure we joke about the Zombie attacks and collapse of civilization as we know it.  It makes good press and Hollywood makes a lucrative heyday out of it.

 

So my kid brother put out on facebook that the power at his place was out for 18 hours and his c-pap machine wouldn't work.  He wasn't prepared.  He's been outdoors as much as I have and has just about as many years of scouting as I have.  But still he wasn't prepared.

 

So no more gasoline, everyone prepared to ride a bike or walk?  Who does enough gardening and knows enough about native plants in their area to keep from starving to death. 

 

Cant sew a patch on a shirt?  

 

How does one boil water when there's no gas or electricity?

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

Food, water, clothing and shelter.  It would be rather fortuitous to Be Prepared to provide all of that in an emergency situation.  So, with that in mind.  How's that STEM stuff working out for you?

[walk in the woods]

Good idea. Problem is using that model the SM must attend all camp outs as he's the guy with the first aid/AED training. Making first first aid/AED mandatory for ASMs. That way the SM could get a break.

Or make these the minimum requirements to hold the job.  No reason an aspirational ASM couldn't get the advanced training on his way to becoming the SM?  Kind of like a Second Class Scout who's already passed some First Class requirements?

 

Looking at the three bullets though the requirements for HA Crew Leader should probably be for a HA Assistant Crew Leader with an experience requirement for HA Crew Leader. 

[qwazse]

A few comments for conversation's sake...

1. Regarding specific "how to's" from my brainstormed list: you know better than to ask me for more rules! IMHO, it would be funny, and a great point of discussion if one table did buck the system and downloaded their "snapshots" from the internet.
2. The small scale is to cut costs for materials and speed production (and dismanteling). You want things to finish (or for some folks, get partially started), so that you have time to introduce other topics.
3. Why? Fun. Or perhaps a better word: sheer joy. And fellowship.
4. Sometimes, it's fun to see a group of boys demonstrate a scenario for all the scouters
   1. so scouters think:
      1. "I wish my boys would do that."
      2. "My boys could do that!"
      3. "Did they do that right?"
   2. and boys think:
      1. "I'm so cool doing this!"
      2. "I wonder if other patrols could do this."
      3. "I wonder how many scouters could do this better than us."
5. It's okay if some scouters don't know the skills and other scouters might need to lend a hand. That's the point. Leave a little room for a light-bulb to go off "Hey I could stand to learn/re-learn this." or "My scouts and I could invite this guy to see how it's really done." Plus, if there are a few flimzy towers, it's a good segue into that safety reminder about structure heights.
6. The not-so-hidden goal is to give folks an experience from which the offer of training opportunities becomes desirable. The actual way you pitch "how to take what we've done to the next level" will vary. It may be a couple of bullet points on safety. It may be an after action review. It may be an inspirational meditation. It may be the invititation to a camporee,  UoS, or specialized training weekend.

[Gone]

 

1. Regarding specific "how to's" from my brainstormed list: you know better than to ask me for more rules! IMHO, it would be funny, and a great point of discussion if one table did buck the system and downloaded their "snapshots" from the internet.
2. The small scale is to cut costs for materials and speed production (and dismanteling). You want things to finish (or for some folks, get partially started), so that you have time to introduce other topics.
3. Why? Fun. Or perhaps a better word: sheer joy. And fellowship.
4. Sometimes, it's fun to see a group of boys demonstrate a scenario for all the scouters
   1. so scouters think:
      1. "I wish my boys would do that."
      2. "My boys could do that!"
      3. "Did they do that right?"
   2. and boys think:
      1. "I'm so cool doing this!"
      2. "I wonder if other patrols could do this."
      3. "I wonder how many scouters could do this better than us."
5. It's okay if some scouters don't know the skills and other scouters might need to lend a hand. That's the point. Leave a little room for a light-bulb to go off "Hey I could stand to learn/re-learn this." or "My scouts and I could invite this guy to see how it's really done." Plus, if there are a few flimzy towers, it's a good segue into that safety reminder about structure heights.
6. The not-so-hidden goal is to give folks an experience from which the offer of training opportunities becomes desirable. The actual way you pitch "how to take what we've done to the next level" will vary. It may be a couple of bullet points on safety. It may be an after action review. It may be an inspirational meditation. It may be the invititation to a camporee,  UoS, or specialized training weekend.

 

 

Good response.

 

I suspect we have different types of learners. What you describe above to me would a) bore me to tears, b) make me feel like I was being talked down to, c) be a waste of my time as nothing substantive is learned, d) if anything got my interest it begs still another step as to how I would implement it.

 

I am more of the type that likes hands-on, real-world, EDGE-style learning. Show me the skill, let me learn the skill, give me ideas on how to apply the skill and to teach it further. Playing with Popsicle sticks and dental floss is not the same as working with logs and rope, IMHO.

[eagle77]

 I would be running for the door fearing I had walked in on the CS RT by mistake. You want to do lashings then bring the logs and rope and do lashings.

[fred johnson]

Wow ... long thread....

 

It gets old now hearing one person prompt another:  "Have you been trained ????"   In my book, it's right up there with discussing and debating "boy led".  Both are objectives, but are so misunderstood and out-of-context that the phrases are worthless.  

 

I have over 100 entries on by BSA training record.  Very few were useful.  Rarely did the training address what I was dealing with.  It really depends on timing and the trainer bringing something special to the table.  Otherwise, most of what I have learned has been face-to-face with other scouters.  

 

      BALOO --> I had an incredible trainer that really helped orient us what needed to be done.  Songs!  Skits!  Fun!  How to run a camp fire.  etc.  How to run the camp.

 

      Wilderness first aid --> A few parts were useful, but most of it was a waste.  The useful parts were the role plan and getting used to the idea of establish roles at the scene.  Someone coordinating.  Someone giving first aid.  Someone going for help.  etc.  Some parts were useful such as realizing just how many people were needed to evacuate a person from the wild.  But otherwise, there was not that much useful.

 

       IOLS --> I had been camping with the troop several years before I took it.  It was not that useful.

 

       Woodbadge --> The topics were not useful at all.  But watching how the ideal troop was run was very useful and made the course worthwhile.

 

       Trainers Edge --> Repeat of college public speaking courses

 

Other than a few select training experiences, the training has been flat.  

 

IMHO ... I agree with an earlier post.  The best trainer is experience.  You want to learn how a troop should camp, go camp with another troop.  

[mattman578]

I am just a cub scout dude so I am still young.  One thing that has kind of bothered me is I took YPT and I was then qualified to be a den leader or cub master.  I took BALOO and Webelos outdoor training so now I can take the cubs on camp outs.  One thing I really like about my Webelos outdoor training was the trainer gave the participants the job of teaching most of the classes. Yea seems kind of funny you are taking a class but guess what you have to teach part of it.  I did the map and compass portion of the class I had orienteering  training in high school and then got navigation with my boating course surprisingly they were both the same one was just flat. 

 

So I showed them how to read a map and measure distances then compensate for declination then they had to play the compass point game.  It was a great day.

 

Until the class was over and we were asked to evaluate  everybody else training class. 

the sheet was simple

was it fun

did you learn anything

what the instructor could have done better

 

Turns out I could have spoken loader and more clearly lol

 

I really like the idea of the AMBC I find if I work on the badge before I try to teach the badge to my scouts I do a better job of teaching that skill to my cubs

 

So why should a scoutmaster not have to complete the hiking badge and its requirements before he takes the troop hiking !!!

[Gone]

@@fred johnson interesting comments. The point of the thread was to find out how we would redesign training to make sure adults avoid situations noted in the original post.

 

Any input there?

[Eagle94-A1]

I thought Powder Horn was suppose to focus on HA planninng and exxecution?

 

 

 

I woulld love too. go through th preWB21C course that focused nnot only onn leadership skills,bbut alsScoutcraft.

[Gone]

I thought Powder Horn was suppose to focus on HA planninng and exxecution?

 

Yes. And I think that's why folks are recommending using it as a template of sorts for a revised BSA training for leaders. Might avoid some of the problems noted in the OP.

[SeattlePioneer]

<<

Before approving someone to lead a trip,  I would want an EXPERIENCED leader to assess the training and experience of the person proposing to lead the trip. That person is FAR better prepared to assess whether someone is ready to lead the trip than any number of required training courses.

 

This is what parents are saying before they send their sons on a trip and are hoping the SM and CC are "honest" in thier choice.

 

You are mainly a cub person, when one gets to Boy Scouts its not scout and parent, its scouts and leaders. if I'm sending my son on a trip no matter what type I am trusting the troop leaders to have the proper training to hopefully make sure that the time my son has is fun and challenging, but more then anything "SAFE">>

 

 

When I hired in as an AS in 1981,  and was promoted to SM a year later,  I had something like 3,000 miles of backpacking experience and modest amounts of glacier and rock climbing experience with the Seattle Mountaineers.  Also a goodly amount of snowshoeing, cross country skiing, and rowing experience, trips and camping.  I was 31 at the time.

 

You don't really need formal training to master any of these sports. Experience and reading is satisfactory,  in my view.

 

The Seattle Mountaineers has a whole series of classes available,  including their Basic Climbing and Intermediate climbing classes,  which are excellent.  But not really necessary if one goes out and does the necessary trips with experienced people who will teach you or you can learn from.