Case Studies: Is Training Really Working?

[Gone]

Isn't trek-planning the basis for PowerHorn?

 

It is, but it is more high adventure focused. These units were, for the most part, just out for "normal" events.

 

Given that most of what we do as part of "normal" scout events, leaders need a better basic training for being outdoors. For example, one group had 20-40 oz of water per person for an 8 mile all day hike. Far too little. No wonder they feared dehydration.

[qwazse]

I'm afraid that we're all so busy training that none of us (unless your jobs mandate it) spend time actually drilling in rapid response.

 

Less training, more drills. More 1st Aid meets. More water rescue drill during open swim (simple stuff, like who can identify -- among the guards still in the water -- the "tired swimmer"). More land nav competitions with the local orienteering club.

 

For example, an RT drill: bring some NWS forecasts and evaluate go/nogo decisions for the next day, next two days. Or circulate maps with hike plans A, B, and C for boys of different levels.

 

Then, good after action review with someone who can give you a score or ranking.

 

I would suggest that every scouter get in the habit of helping youth plan independent hiking and camping. Judge their limitations, have them adjust their plans accordingly. But, someone is going to spout off about "Jimmy the Retarted SM" and G2SS blah, blah, blah ...

 

I don't need to go back to training every two years. I need to go back when I'm not executing flawlessly during drills. No drills? No way to know when I need to be trained. (At this age, I sometimes feel like I need to go back every year!)

 

And, certainly, going over recent tragedies can be part of the drill.

[eagle77]

Whoa hoss!

 

I think you need to consider who you're asking to do the training.  The QUALITY of the training most everywhere is woefully inadequate.  So you're thinking about giving the same boobs a bigger role?

 

Come up with some mechanism to enforce the content transfer of the current training and you'll have come a long way.

 

Instead of lecturing from a Powerpoint about getting lost or running out of water, drop your ITOLs class in the woods with minimal water 2 miles from somewhere.  No phones or GPS.  Give them a topo map and a compass, so that they can learn the IMPORTANCE of knowing where you are, or how to find where you are, and having enough water. 

 

  This is an excellent point. I would like to add something else to it. I was asked to take on a training session at one of our councils training sessions. For the last 15 minutes I put together a 20 question, multiple choice quiz for the class to take. I actually wanted to see if what I was teaching was getting through. This quiz would be animous and would have no effect on whether they would get credit for the course. In the morning session 3 refused to take the quiz stating that I was "adding to the requirements". The afternoon session had 2 that refused and gave basically the same excuse. When I got home I looked through all of the quiz's and found that less than half of either session would have passed. Needless to say I was never asked to do another training session. So just as much as you may have the "boobs" doing the training i also think there needs to be someway to make sure that the "boobs" taking the course also be accountable as well.

[SeattlePioneer]

Training is fine.  I've taken a lot of it.  Some is good,  some is worthless.

 

 

EXPERIENCE is priceless!

 

Training without experience isn't worth much.  You are just a beginner.

 

Someone who has done a lot of an outdoor activity is likely an Xpert,  even if he has taken no formal training.

 

 

Everyone should have some kind of First Aid course,  but I wouldn't require a specific course. 

 

 

Before approving someone to lead a trip,  I would want an EXPERIENCED leader to assess the training and experience of the person proposing to lead the trip. That person is FAR better prepared to assess whether someone is ready to lead the trip than any number of required training courses.

[blw2]

I agree with the point about "quality" of training....

I have taken more first aid classes than I could ever count, done a fair bit of side reading on the subject too....

but I really don't feel overly confident or qualified.  Not much of it was truly hands-on.....

Oh, we might take a few minutes to mock through how you might wrap an ankle or tie a splint or whatever.... but it's always just half hearted efforts in the interest of speeding the class along.

Not nearly enough good hands on under the guidance of a true non-power-point-reading expert.

 

But again, cost and time make all this prohibitive....

 

The best first aid class I ever took was a "community 1st aid and CPR" class I took in preperation for my divemaster and assistant instructor cert.  The teacher was an off duty paramedic.  He spent a lot of time telling war stories in detail..... not exactly hands on, but it gave a sense of realism through the 1st hand experience.

[eagle77]

Training is fine.  I've taken a lot of it.  Some is good,  some is worthless.

 

 I actually find much of the training to be too basic and needing some detail to it.

 

EXPERIENCE is priceless!

 

 True, but I'm going to want some type of training to keep it priceless.

 

Training without experience isn't worth much.  You are just a beginner.

 

I hope then that I will always be a "beginner" should anyone have a heart attack, but would sure value more having the training to know what has to be done if it should ever happen.

 

Someone who has done a lot of an outdoor activity is likely an Xpert,  even if he has taken no formal training.

 

I do alot of outdoor activities and would in no way consider myself an expert.

 

Everyone should have some kind of First Aid course,  but I wouldn't require a specific course. 

 

First aid in the wilderness is far more challenging and different then something happening on the street or in the parking lot.

 

Before approving someone to lead a trip,  I would want an EXPERIENCED leader to assess the training and experience of the person proposing to lead the trip. That person is FAR better prepared to assess whether someone is ready to lead the trip than any number of required training courses.

 

This is what parents are saying before they send their sons on a trip and are hoping the SM and CC are "honest" in thier choice.

 

You are mainly a cub person, when one gets to Boy Scouts its not scout and parent, its scouts and leaders. if I'm sending my son on a trip no matter what type I am trusting the troop leaders to have the proper training to hopefully make sure that the time my son has is fun and challenging, but more then anything "SAFE"

[JasonG172]

My guess is if you required all that training, your available pool of registered scout leaders would diminish to the vanishing point.  As to the incidents, sometimes you can't fix stupid.

 

I don't believe that to be the case, if you're an ourdoorman then why not have more training.  OK I get that IF you're just some volunteer!  There is a difference in volunteers.

[Gone]

Update to the ongoing list:

• Teach planning and execution of program activities.
• Keep the costs low and reasonable.
• Make initial training (i.e., first aid) rigorous but the "re-cert" training less so.
• Use an evaluation criteria to test the people taking the training to see if they pass a minimum threshold.
• Develop ways to ensure that training attendees are participating, learning and able to apply what is being taught.
• Hands-on training, no PPTs. Use EDGE.
• Follow-up mechanism to make sure training is being implemented within the unit.
• Standardizing the curricula for the various training courses so that they can be implemented consistently. 
• Make sure courses are well-developed and of professional quality.
• More practice and drills (competitions/demos/meets) should be available for applying learned skills. For example, an RT drill: bring some NWS forecasts and evaluate go/no-go decisions for the next day, next two days. Or circulate maps with hike plans A, B, and C for boys of different levels. Afterwards you are scored on your decision.
• Make something like Powder Horn available more frequently.

[Stosh]

Alas, I think this is a fantastic tree to climb, but for the most part a way too daunting of a task.

 

I've been in the youth business for 40+ years, 30+ in Scouting.  

 

I got my youth work training through college credits, church youth groups and now scouting.

 

I got my ARC First Aid training through work.  Same for CPR.

 

I got my EMT-A training through volunteering for and establishing an ambulance/rescue squad in a small town and working as a volunteer for a government ambulance service.

 

I got most of my camping experience from personal camping throughout the country.

 

 I got my Life Saving training through the ARC.

 

How does one put 60 years of experience into a couple of weekends worth of training?

 

I know when to go, I know when not to go.  I know my limits and I know the limits of my boys.  I have have Tornado Watch training many times while living in the middle of Tornado Alley.  

 

My situation is unique and each concurrent generation spends less and less time gathering experience in the outdoor setting especially in the areas of challenging activities pertaining to the types of things noted as high adventure.

 

Is there such a thing as adequate training for someone who thinks fishing out of a bass boat, deer hunting once a year for a week  and camping at the KOA qualifies them as a potential SM even if they have Eagle marked on their registration form?

 

Good topic.

[eagle77]

 

 

Is there such a thing as adequate training for someone who thinks fishing out of a bass boat, deer hunting once a year for a week  and camping at the KOA qualifies them as a potential SM even if they have Eagle marked on their registration form?

 

Good topic.

 

 

Yet how many SM and ASMs are out there that don't even have these qualifcations? To them being outdoors is a walk along the concrete or black top trail in the nearby park.

[Eagle94-A1]

In regards to first aid, I know AHA has a 2 year certification process for both CPR and First Aid. Instructors also need to do recerts every two years. THEN we need to get certified with the updates that come out every 5 years.

 

And that is one of the biggest challenges in regards to first aid training: research changes techniques every 5 years.  Best example I can give is CPR. back in the day it was 5:2 and Airways, Breathing, Circulation. Now it's 30:2, and Circulation, Airway, Breathing.

 

Anyone remember when  bleeding was Direct pressure, elevation, pressure point, tourniquet? Then they took out tourniquets and replaced with pressure ball and bandage? Now they brought back tourniquets.

 

So I can understand why they want the 2 year recerts for first aid.

 

On a differnent note, didn't the old pre WB21C course cover a lot of what we are talking about?

[Gone]

@@Eagle94-A1 I remember when we treated snake bites with these....

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Snakebite_kit.jpg

[eagle77]

 That was cool. I have not seen one of them since I was a kid. Had one in my upper side pocket on my pack. I also remember when the neckerchief was also your triangular bandage.

[MattR]

You made my argument: Many of these leaders lacked basic implementational knowledge to AVOID these situations. Not having enough water, not having a map, leaving the trail, running out of food, not notifying people of your travel plans, not looking at the hydrology tables PRIOR to setting out on a canoe trip, under-estimating the abilities of the people on your trek....these are ALL avoidable things had these leaders taken all the basic training above AND some of the additional training mentioned.

It's the additional training I'd like to see because the basic training doesn't cover this. Certainly not IOLS. Not sure about trek safely.

 

Part of this is basic adventure training: know your limits. That requires experience. No classes can teach that.

 

But again, these guys got out alive with no serious injury. Only one group split up so that's good. And people knew to eat their pride and know when they were beat.

[Eagle94-A1]

@@Eagle94-A1 I remember when we treated snake bites with these....

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Snakebite_kit.jpg

 

 

SSSSSHHHHHH, don't tell anyone, But I still got one of those in my big first aid kit. If they brought back tourniquets, they may bring back these. I like being prepared.