Episode 3: The Truth Escapes (Or "how Wrong We Were To Join This Troop")

[imachristian13]

Well, yes, that happens. But, somehow between two people who weren't the SM, this became grounds for expulsion FROM THE DISTRICT?

 

The parents are perplexed.

 

The SM should be infuriated. But, he is a man of few words. Maybe in the long run that's a good thing.

 

It actually only became grounds for the 2 ASMs to raise a negative tone toward our family - not expulsion from the District. 

SM is worn out - can't serve the other boys if he has no ASMs anymore.  That's what would happen if he spoke up we believe.  

[Gone]

It actually only became grounds for the 2 ASMs to raise a negative tone toward our family - not expulsion from the District. 

SM is worn out - can't serve the other boys if he has no ASMs anymore.  That's what would happen if he spoke up we believe.  

 

We've all been the "worn out" leader. I'd rather spend what few sleeping hours I do get helping a kid in need, then capitulate to two conniving, ill-mannered ASMs who are acting contrary to what their role dictates. I'd rather be an SM with no ASMs than to let those two continue in my unit. Boys come first, adults last...full stop. 

[qwazse]

It actually only became grounds for the 2 ASMs to raise a negative tone toward our family - not expulsion from the District. 

SM is worn out - can't serve the other boys if he has no ASMs anymore.  That's what would happen if he spoke up we believe.

 

I did not mean that in the formal sense. But badmouthing outside of their unit ... what other end game is there? Or as that great sage of the modern music industry puts it, "Why ya gotta be so mean?"

I've managed a crew with one coadvisor. I understand burnout and failure.

But, anyome who can't stand even one of my youth - youth whom I consider the Almighty to have dropped at my campsite on purpose - can get with the program or go pound sand. Either option and we'll all do just fine.

 

By the way, this is no different than when I have a youth complain about another youth. Tell me what he did. Why he did it. Can you all work it out?

[Twocubdad]

The main thing we don't know, Imachristian, is the troop leaders side of they story. I know you feel you have presented their point of view fairly, but I rather think they would disagree. No matter how thin a pancake, it always has two sides. All due respect, I don't believe you are in a position to objectively say what THEIR expectations may have been or whether or not THEY felt fully trained to deal with you son.

 

I tend to agree with GSdad on this. God bless those leaders who can and will deal with special needs Scouts. But we are still volunteers and should have the latitude to decide what challenges we are willing to accept and those we don't feel capable of accepting. And while a unit may make a commitment to take on a Scout with challenges, unless they are professionals, I don't think one can fully understand what that commitment will be. There is nothing wrong with saying "this is more than I can handle" and asking out of that commitment. It is a wise man who understands his limitations and a wiser man who will take him at word on it.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Twocubdad

[imachristian13]

Your point is well taken with one critical exception.

 

Saying that "this is more than I can handle" would have been fantastic! Even though they had agreed to take on our son, they always had the out - it was written in the Committee minutes that way at MY insistence so that everyone was clear. All they had to do was say "can't do it anymore...now what?"

 

Instead, they took all of the negative steps that have been discussed all along.

 

We are moving ahead. They have chosen to continue to be inappropriate in their actions BUT that's OK...we are all about moving ahead.

[Twocubdad]

I don't question in the least the situation has been handled very poorly.

[HICO_Eagle]

At risk of reviving a zombie thread, I finally made it all the way through all three threads.  I've seen a lot of people jumping off to pass judgment immediately based on a single point of view and one person observing that only one side of the story has been told.

 

I have no doubt imachristian13's son will be better off in another unit and I hope they've been able to find the right unit for him.  On the other hand, all of her posts convey (to me) a strong sense of "they (the troop) will change to accommodate my son" even when she says they agreed (at her insistence) to guidelines or rules about how or when to give up.  I have no doubt she was trying to be reasonable but as was pointed out earlier, they had no obligation to accommodate her or him.

 

I have no idea what motivated the ASMs in question to take the actions they did but I can think of analogous situations where I'd feel obliged to let a prospective future troop know what they were in for, not to blacklist the boy but to ensure the troop entered the relationship with full knowledge.  My troop has a "boy" with Asperger's who just made Eagle.  We're immensely proud of him and the progress he made in the troop but I can also say his first couple of years were very difficult.  His first year, he would literally explode unexpectedly, lashing out physically when he exceeded some unknown level of frustration.  After a week at summer camp where I found myself having to literally watch him 1-on-1 for the safety of other campers, we (the SM, all 3 ASMs, the TCC, and COR) had a meeting with his parents.  We recounted the difficulties at summer camp and other weekends and then told them we were NOT asking them to leave -- he was precisely the kind of boy who needed Scouting the most -- but advising them we might have to ask for more assistance from them in the future as it wasn't fair to the other boys to have half the adult leadership devoted to one boy.

 

He mellowed somewhat after 2-3 years and we breathed a sigh of relief until his youngest brother (with a milder case) lashed out at another Scout at summer camp.  He lashed out so quickly that I don't think it registered to him that he had an arrow in his hand (from Archery class) but the other Scout was lucky to have jumped away as quickly as he did and I think I was as pale as he was.  I separated them and walked off with the brother (in view of the rest of the troop so we were still IAW YPT) to let him talk about what was frustrating him.  Situation handled -- but it was not easy and we constantly had to think about the safety of and fairness to the rest of the troop.

 

We have yet another slightly autistic Scout in the troop who also just attained Eagle.  Never an issue of safety with him but again he would frequently monopolize the time and attention of the SM or ASMs and getting him through advancement and merit badges was a constant chore.  I'd have advocated for taking him on if he was transferring from another troop but I also would have appreciated the other troop telling us what we were in for as a heads up.  I'm not a telepath so I don't know if the ASMs in question were being mean and spiteful or trying to be considerate of other troops by giving them full knowledge of the difficulties they were about to take on.

 

I hope imachristian13 has found or quickly finds the right troop for her son and that he grows in Scouting as the boys in my troop have but I also think people need to be a little slower before passing judgment on the ASMs.

[imachristian13]

I have no doubt imachristian13's son will be better off in another unit and I hope they've been able to find the right unit for him.  On the other hand, all of her posts convey (to me) a strong sense of "they (the troop) will change to accommodate my son" even when she says they agreed (at her insistence) to guidelines or rules about how or when to give up.  I have no doubt she was trying to be reasonable but as was pointed out earlier, they had no obligation to accommodate her or him.

 

@@HICO_Eagle - 

 

While I do thank you for your comment and sharing your message on your scenarios with your Autistic Scouts, I do want to comment on an aspect of your commentary that is far off the mark.  

 

Tell me how you would have done this differently. 

• Our Son was invited to visit the Troop by his own friend who was involved and whose father is a family friend as well as an ASM and a Commissioner.
• After the initial visit and before committing to joining, we sat down (my wife and I) with the Committee, SM and most of the ASM team (including the two ASMs we've been discussing all along).
• At this meeting, they asked us how we could make this happen. We didn't "insist" on anything. We worked with these folks to develop a plan that was to their liking. That plan included our being onsite at all times unless they allowed us to do otherwise - usually on camping trips when we could not attend due to work or on local trips where we would be within a phone call's reach so that he could have some autonomous time. Again, items that they instituted. Meanwhile, I have been finishing my training as an ASM - something that has been rewarding but challenging since I did not excel at Boy Scouts during my own youth.  
• There was never an "obligation" to accommodate our son or the two of us. No request to the Troop for a change in action or a shift in activities - heck, we didn't even seek a change in physical fitness areas until they suggested it to us.  The only obligation should have been that they live up to their own commitment to the plan that they set into motion.  

On the issue of whether or not the ASMs should have gone to another SM, there is a huge difference between sharing concerns in the manner you described and how these folks behaved. We would have had no issue with them sharing those types of things whatsoever, especially since we bring those types of things to the table ourselves when we meet folks who may be supervising our son in our absence.

 

So...what would you have done differently and why shouldn't we have expected them to live up to the plans that they agreed to?  

[JoeBob]

Listen to your own words.

 

You explained, they planned, and they agreed.  

It didn't work out.

The challenge was more difficult than anticipated.

 

Was there a non-disclosure agreement?

 

Any goodhearted Scouter who had an epic failure with a boy should be obliged to warn his fellow leaders to plan better than he did.

 

Your feelings are hurt, you still have a challenging son, and you want to vent.  Good.  Use this forum for that.

 

But I advise you to adjust the way you approach your next troop or risk another failure.

 

Good luck.

[imachristian13]

@@JoeBob - I'm actually well past the hurt in this. I will ask you what I asked @@HICO_Eagle. What would you do differently in the "approach"? 

[qwazse]

@@imachristian13, I don't think you our anyone else can diagnose this as a case of no-matter-where-you-go-there-you-are until you actually go there.

 

Another troop, another campfire, another discussion with different ASMs. I'm betting you drew a bad hand with the last troop. I'm betting they didn't know they were a bad hand. But, if I'm wrong, be sure to tell us.

[HICO_Eagle]

@@imachristian13 --

First off, sorry for the gender confusion.  For some reason, I thought you were the mother.  In any event, the words I see that keep coming through are "we worked to develop" and "they agreed to".  In other words, it wasn't their plan, it was yours.

 

What would I have done differently?  In your place, rather than develop plans that the SM/ASMs "agree to", I'd have asked how they thought it should be handled, what I could do to assist, and then follow up to get feedback as THEIR plans were tried out.  Perhaps they felt railroaded into agreeing to your plan, perhaps they're just jerks ... I don't know, I'm not a telepath.

 

Question:  how does the ASM/commissioner who is a family friend and whose son invited your son to the troop feel about this?  What did he see or hear?  I am somewhat incredulous that the ASMs didn't discuss the situation amongst themselves.  The SM/ASMs have discussed all sorts of things regarding troop operations in all three troops, all three councils that I've participated in as an adult Scouter.  Why didn't he perceive an issue earlier and tell you about it earlier or intervene to change their plans?

 

As I said, I think you'll be better off at another troop anyway, I am just leery about all the judgments and statements being passed with only having one side of the story.

[SpEdScouter]

To the OP.

 

I hear you. This is why we need more leaders with expereince with Autism Spectrum disorders plus other emotional, behavioral, and learning disabilities. People think the word "disability" means something visible like a wheelchair and they say "why cant he just...?".

[SpEdScouter]

To the OP.

 

I hear you. This is why we need more leaders with expereince with Autism Spectrum disorders plus other emotional, behavioral, and learning disabilities. People think the word "disability" means something visible like a wheelchair and they say "why cant he just...?".