Episode 3: The Truth Escapes (Or "how Wrong We Were To Join This Troop")

[Twocubdad]

You think?

[imachristian13]

@@DuctTape - I certainly understand the Devil's Advocate angle. The problem is that I am usually the one playing that role in our community. Before posting these threads in the first place, I have already played all of the visible sides out in order to present a fair (and as unbiased as possible) view. The response from the district and from the SM - coupled with the reactions we have received from other SMs when we request a visit (usually "Oh...you are coming from THAT troop?") - I think I'm on solid ground.

 

We are moving on either way. 

[qwazse]

...

We are moving on either way. 

 

So, not to keep you on the therapists' couch any longer than necessary ... but you haven't really addressed the 2nd half of your title:"how Wrong We Were To Join This Troop" I know you were being rhetorical, but this is where you want to think carefully (maybe including your son in the discussion) before you continue visiting other troops.

 

Well, how wrong you were depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for top-down adults-in-the-business-of-everything a kid does organization that would protect your son from potentially mean boys, you were quite right.

 

If you were looking for something where the boys took responsibility for each other, and worked hard to figure out the quirks and be quick to forgive. While the adults coached from a distance ... well you missed the signs.

 

So, what are you and your son gonna look for now that you weren't looking for before?

Edited June 12, 2015 by qwazse

[imachristian13]

So, not to keep you on the therapists' couch any longer than necessary ... but you haven't really addressed the 2nd half of your title:"how Wrong We Were To Join This Troop" I know you were being rhetorical, but this is where you want to think carefully (maybe including your son in the discussion) before you continue visiting other troops.

 

Well, how wrong you were depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for top-down adults-in-the-business-of-everything a kid does organization that would protect your son from potentially mean boys, you were quite right.

 

If you were looking for something where the boys took responsibility for each other, and worked hard to figure out the quirks and be quick to forgive. While the adults coached from a distance ... well you missed the signs.

 

So, what are you and your son gonna look for now that you weren't looking for before?

 

Well, Dr. Qwazse, here's my thoughts...

 

Our son has been in on the discussion from before we switched from Royal Rangers to BSA. We were "wrong" because we trusted the adult leaders to communicate properly with us. We were wrong because we believed that the adult leaders would keep their own commitment to assisting us in making our son's experience positive. We were wrong, lastly, for not recognizing that - despite our being right there in front of them at (almost) all times - these folks were displeased with how things were happening.  

 

There are no issues with the boys of the troop - meaning that they are not mean to him at all. Sometimes boys like each other and sometimes boys don't - we aren't seeking utopia here either.  We were specifically not looking to be helicopter parents here either - as you already know. We wanted Boy-Led. The only catch with Boy-Led and our son is that occasionally he needs adult interaction to resolve issues that he cannot resolve on his own. Issues that the boy leaders are not equipped to handle. When he gets hung up, fixated, or is unable to keep up on a task without some added instruction.  THIS is where the adults failed him. THIS is, also, where we failed him by not catching up with the adults belief that he just needed to get his butt kicked once in awhile and he'd be fine (one of the adults is what we might call an Autism Denier to be honest).  

 

We are looking for a troop that accepts him in a similar or better fashion than the prior troop AND where the adults can take the ball where necessary with our direct help.  

 

[jr56]

Sounds like you made the right decision, hope things get better for you folks.

[moosetracker]

We are looking for a troop that accepts him in a similar or better fashion than the prior troop AND where the adults can take the ball where necessary with our direct help.  

 

 I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?.. If you found a troop that was more boy led and asked you to instruct the SPL & PL as well as some adults, a troop that would mentor the boy leaders (SPL, PL) in how to work with your son.. Do you see this as an impossible feat? 

 

Just asking, I know you said you want boy-lead, but it seems you move back to wanting to lean on only adults for aiding your son when he gets stuck somehow..

[Gone]

 I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?.. If you found a troop that was more boy led and asked you to instruct the SPL & PL as well as some adults, a troop that would mentor the boy leaders (SPL, PL) in how to work with your son.. Do you see this as an impossible feat? 

 

Just asking, I know you said you want boy-lead, but it seems you move back to wanting to lean on only adults for aiding your son when he gets stuck somehow..

 

Seriously? 

 

Most adults find handling special need kids exceptionally difficult. Kids between 11-17 would find it equally so, if not more so.

 

Are there a few kids that could handle the task? Sure. Probably equal to the number of kids who don't play video games or who obey everything their parents say.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[Stosh]

@

 

That's not necessarily a black and white issue.  I find that these kids are exposed to these ADHD, Asperger's and autistic kids all day long at school and probably have a pretty good idea what to expect from them.  They might see these kids for 4 - 5 hours a day whereas the SM and other adults see them for an hour or two in a far less restrictive environment making it a lot more uncertain.  I guess I would rely a bit on my scouts to keep the peace more than an unknown or lesser know adult trying to step in and deal with issues.

 

These kids rely a lot on familiarity and known situations to feel comfortable.  Put them in a new environment with new adults and new situations, they may turn to familiar people they know from school to help them out.

 

Obviously each case, each scout, each troop, each other adults all play into the process, but I would turn to my scouts first to see what they can do to navigate the situation simply because they may already know more about what's going on that I do.

[imachristian13]

 I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?.. If you found a troop that was more boy led and asked you to instruct the SPL & PL as well as some adults, a troop that would mentor the boy leaders (SPL, PL) in how to work with your son.. Do you see this as an impossible feat? 

 

Just asking, I know you said you want boy-lead, but it seems you move back to wanting to lean on only adults for aiding your son when he gets stuck somehow..

 

Quite the contrary. The now-former troop members were very strong in how they interacted with our son. When that wasn't working, the SM and ASMs (even those two) encouraged the SPL, PL, etc. to seek us out as well as other opportunities to learn about how to make everything work. The issues we had came, primarily, when the scenario grew past the abilities of the available members; thus, requiring adult involvement. 

 

I have to ask something to all of you here.  The basis for how to interact with our son when he is in crisis is not complex. As an adult, unless you are having a bad day yourself of course, why is this being seen as difficult?  

1. Safely remove him from the scene.
2. Allow him to calm down on his own.
3. Never, ever attempt to resolve anything (good or bad) at that time.

[moosetracker]

Frankly if that is the process, then I don't know why Bad Wolf thinks that a Patrol Leader would be unable to accomplish that.. As for an Adult, I don't see an issue either, in fact asking them to let him be alone until he calms down sounds a lot easier then asking them to do something with him (counseling, restraining, allowing him to do whatever he wants to do etc.)

 

Bad Wolf - I asked because in our troop the boys did work with the boys who had special needs.. BSA has a merit badge on disability Awareness, if done at our summer camp the boys spend quite a few hours with the Easter Seals group working with Special Needs kids, besides the 1 hour morning course, they spent about 3 hours during each afternoon free time working with them.. I don't see it as a ridiculous question..

 

But yes imachristian, I agree the PL should know the adults have their back should they need the help.. It just wasn't sounding like that was what you were describing.

[Gone]

Frankly if that is the process, then I don't know why Bad Wolf thinks that a Patrol Leader would be unable to accomplish that.. As for an Adult, I don't see an issue either, in fact asking them to let him be alone until he calms down sounds a lot easier then asking them to do something with him (counseling, restraining, allowing him to do whatever he wants to do etc.)

 

Bad Wolf - I asked because in our troop the boys did work with the boys who had special needs.. BSA has a merit badge on disability Awareness, if done at our summer camp the boys spend quite a few hours with the Easter Seals group working with Special Needs kids, besides the 1 hour morning course, they spent about 3 hours during each afternoon free time working with them.. I don't see it as a ridiculous question..

 

But yes imachristian, I agree the PL should know the adults have their back should they need the help.. It just wasn't sounding like that was what you were describing.

There's a huge spectrum of special needs kids in scouts. It requires patience and training to manage them. I train adults on how to manage such kids. Youth usually don't have the maturity to deal with it. Some do, most don't. Those who do are in scouts for their own journey, not to manage kids with greater needs. The farther one is down the spectrum the more adult involvement is necessary.

[packsaddle]

Seriously? 

 

Probably equal to the number of kids who don't play video games or who obey everything their parents say.

A.K.A. Stepford children.

[moosetracker]

There's a huge spectrum of special needs kids in scouts. It requires patience and training to manage them. I train adults on how to manage such kids. Youth usually don't have the maturity to deal with it. Some do, most don't. Those who do are in scouts for their own journey, not to manage kids with greater needs. The farther one is down the spectrum the more adult involvement is necessary.

Reason why I worded my question the way I did:

I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?..

 

if the OP stated their child's problems were too much for the youth to handle then OK, that would have been the answer.. But, you just ridiculed the whole question as if a youth can not at all handle any difficulties at all if a child has special needs.. My personal experience is that many of our youth grew in leadership and confidence when given the responsibility of some of our special needs children.. But, I will acknowledge that our troop has only had kids whose special needs were somewhat mild when the child's issue meant they may not be the greatest team player.. Although one I admit not having the patience with because whatever he had it always came off as him not wanting to be there or do anything.. But, PL & SPL did better then I, then when one of our adults got training and came back to train both adults and youth on how to include him we absolutely saw a difference in him.

 

We have also had special needs where the problem was more physical and the scout himself was cheerful and enthusiastic, but the physical issues were serious, we have had two scouts that had medical issues that the scout could drop dead at any minute.. But scout and their parents wanted to live and experience life as normal as possible rather then live like they were already dead.

[Gone]

Reason why I worded my question the way I did:

 

if the OP stated their child's problems were too much for the youth to handle then OK, that would have been the answer.. But, you just ridiculed the whole question as if a youth can not at all handle any difficulties at all if a child has special needs.. My personal experience is that many of our youth grew in leadership and confidence when given the responsibility of some of our special needs children.. But, I will acknowledge that our troop has only had kids whose special needs were somewhat mild when the child's issue meant they may not be the greatest team player.. Although one I admit not having the patience with because whatever he had it always came off as him not wanting to be there or do anything.. But, PL & SPL did better then I, then when one of our adults got training and came back to train both adults and youth on how to include him we absolutely saw a difference in him.

We have also had special needs where the problem was more physical and the scout himself was cheerful and enthusiastic, but the physical issues were serious, we have had two scouts that had medical issues that the scout could drop dead at any minute.. But scout and their parents wanted to live and experience life as normal as possible rather then live like they were already dead.

It was not ridicule.

 

Look, I have a special needs kid. My unit works with such kids and we have seven or more kids on the spectrum. Our leadership has been professionally trained to handle these kids. The expectation to mainstream kids further down the spectrum is unrealistic if mainstream means minimum to no adult intervention. That's going to happen in 1 out of 100 cases. That's from doctors and professionals we've worked with, not me. At the other end of the spectrum (mild conditions) it is far more successful.

 

Most parents of special needs kids know darn well if their kid can/can't cope without their intervention. You find out pretty fast if you don't know. Getting such kids mainstreamed takes YEARS, and I mean 4-5+ years if not more. Your mileage may vary.

 

We are awarding one of our kids with Autism his Eagle tomorrow; dad was always there, but in the background. In seven years of very hard work we just couldn't get to the point where dad could stay home. He knew that going in. No delusions.

 

If you're a parent of such challenged kids you know, you just do.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[Stosh]

I have no doubt that when people talk about special needs kids, there's a potpourri of different conditions and even within those conditions an infinite number of variances that come with the situation.  But then that could be said about any kid on the block special needs or not.  We have the garden variety of physical conditions, mental conditions, emotional conditions, environmental conditions, social conditions, etc. etc. and the list goes on and on.

 

I don't care how much training one has, I don't care how much parent involvement is involved, I don't care how much medical considerations have to be maintained, I don't care how much effort it is going to take to make it successful for the boy.  

 

My solution to this whole issue?  As SM, "Take care of your boys."  It's been my philosophy for my boys, my adults and myself.  As long as one cares about the success of any of their boys, the work-arounds and problem solving will happen.  

 

When Joe showed up at a meeting, he had a scoutbook from way back in his hands.  His uniform was a mess, his "assistant" accompanied him from the institution he was living in.  He was 34 years of age and had special dispensation from BSA to continue working as a Scout.  Did I mention he would walk into a room with the biggest grin on his face and say hi to everyone he met along with a proper Boy Scout handshake.  He would then sit down with the boys and remain silent for the rest of the meeting.  I did a SMC right away and asked him where he would like help with his program.  He was LIFE rank and wanted to work on his Eagle.  No problem, we work on his Eagle.  Every week, he would come having accomplished nothing, but every week we talked about it and made plans.  He just loved scouting and that probably the high point of his week was the meeting.  He could never attend any other activities because of his restrictions.  So what.  I really liked Joe.  He as a Real Scout and hopefully some day he'll be a Real Eagle.

 

Was it a disruption to have him around?  Yep.  Was it worth it to have him around?  Yep, the kids really liked him.