imachristian13 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Good morning everyone. If you have been following my past two threads (linked below for your convenience), you know that my wife and I were headed to the Troop Committee last night. We had decided that we were going to withdraw our son from the troop but we still felt it important that we understand why our experience had gone sour. In addition, we wanted to address the husband and wife ASMs regarding their personal actions. Present were our District Executive, the Committee Chair, the Scoutmaster, the husband and wife ASMs, three additional ASMs, and a few others. The only thing that I don't believe I have said before is that - the day we first visited the troop - my wife and I discussed what we were trying to accomplish with our son. Specifically, that we hoped to equip the troop leaders with the tools they needed to allow him to be part of the troop without our needing to be the helicopter parents that we normally have to be. They agreed to this challenge under the condition that we understood that we might need to increase activity with the troop in the future. Here are the new items that came to light at the meeting: The story changed yet again as to why - they believed - our son fled from their care at the recent local activity. We have now heard: (a) we don't know why, (b) the underage scout didn't start the vehicle and proclaim he would be driving, © the underage scout did start the vehicle but his father did not tell our son that said scout was permitted to drive, (d) the underage scout was told by his father to start the vehicle and his father did tell our son that he was permitted to drive, and, finally, (e) the van belonged to another ASM who had instructed the underage scout to start the vehicle. None of this really matters other than to show that they're lying. When we shared our concern that the ASMs had contacted the other troop, we were amazed. They did not deny it - they were angry at the other troop's SM and threatened that they were going to have to call her to yell at her about it. When we tried to steer them back to the part about bad mouthing our son (or us) to other troops, they commented that they had to "protect other scouts at all costs". Here's where it got interesting. Another ASM spoke, commenting at length about how difficult it was to work with our son. How much time that the leadership team has spent discussing him and that they are just tired. They need to work with the other boys, too. He went on to state that the leadership team is not trained to handle this type of thing and that we were being unrealistic in our expectations. We reminded them of the initial discussion and went on to describe the full litany of steps we have taken to train and assist them since our arrival. We asked why, if they had such concerns, we weren't being taken advantage of as resources. If we are there at every meeting and most events, why are we only be used for "mop up" duty when something goes wrong? The husband and wife ASMs spoke up at this point, the husband saying that I was p***ng him off, stating that they were told by the Troop Committee (after a rafting trip that, in hindsight, was not a good decision on our part to send him) that our son would not attend any "away trips" without my wife or myself. He went on to say that we are so lazy that we haven't even followed through on that. We reminded the group that we actually had been on every away trip since then unless the SM told us that he felt confident that our son would be fine. Despite rattling off each and every trip of this nature, the ASMs said we were full of s**t. Yet another ASM spoke (with the other ASMs interjecting periodically). He shared that we had no idea how much difficulty our son has been causing. That - when he was a scout in the late 1980's - he was personally kicked out of this troop for far less than our son gets away with. That there are many scouts whom they have had to keep from leaving the troop specifically due to our son. Why should our son be permitted to continue to act out in this way when other boys have to learn how to behave? I reminded the gentleman that he is not Autistic and what a ridiculous statement that was. And, how hurtful of a statement to say that others have wanted to leave because of our son. We are supposed to be an inclusive organization. If we can't do it, that is fine with us but they needed to speak up a long time ago. The same ASM then said "you're forgetting that this isn't about us, it's about the boys" and told me that he thought we should take it outside (the husband ASM and I that is). Really? My wife started heading for the door. I, by the grace of God, kept my temper and just commented that we didn't understand what had gone wrong. As I started to go, the same ASM who had just commented, asked when we were going to discuss the nasty e-mails I had sent to the SM, CC, and DE? My wife and I stopped and asked what he was talking about. We then dug out our phones and read every word I ever sent to the DE about this. The DE concurred that we had spoken with nothing but respect the entire time. The SM, who had been silent to this point (he doesn't speak much anyway - his nature), spoke and said that the e-mail that he and the CC had received (at the same time) was equally appropriate - only describing the scenarios. He then looked directly at the husband and wife ASMs and said "all you have to do is walk him to the side, make sure he's safe, and let him calm down...it's not that hard". They assaulted him verbally about it as well - "that's unrealistic", "we can't let him treat us this way". We told the group that we felt that these folks had missed out on a great opportunity but that, in the end, it was their loss. We thanked the SM for all he had done for our son - because he has done a ton - and left. We were just amazed by the blatant ignorance of these folks to the situation and how to treat fellow human beings under the circumstances. (Not surprised, just amazed). So...what do you all think? We are moving our son on to another troop (visitations over the summer months, landing in the fall we hope). We are, also, understandably worried about how this group of people is leading boys in our town. We can't do much about it other than to raise awareness wherever we go. Does anyone think we should complain any further? If so, why? (To be clear - we don't want to go further with it at this point). Thanks for keeping me sane on this over these past days. http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27268-scout-wautism-troop-asms-having-difficulty-possible-new-troops-sm-called-by-asms-thoughts/ http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27281-new-twist-to-my-prior-topic-these-assistants-have-now-requested-that-our-son-be-removed/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have simply walked away from situations far less dramatic as this. It's time to move on, find a nice troop and don't look back. These people will never change and there's nothing you can do about it. Your current SM could possibly assist in finding a new troop as with the DE and SE. I'm sure they saw the situation as it really was and didn't need to follow up on the past, just focus to the future. There are troops out there that look more for opportunities than faults that are run by Sincere scouters who live by the Scout Oath and Law who will "take care of their boys." It's just a matter of time to find it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I think it is time to cut all bonds to this old troop, unless you find that this couple or others in the troop are still attacking you or your son and hurting his chances of finding a new troop.. Otherwise if they are able to leave you be, then best for you and your peace of mind to let them be.. So let's look forward, what are your plans to find a new troop? Are you going to try to contact troop that this couple has already hurt your chances with, or do you have some idea of troops they are not involved with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imachristian13 Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 We have 4 other troops that would make sense. The one that we were looking at (where the ASM overstepped) is not looking like a good fit for other reasons (nothing bad, just preferences). The other three are recommendations from the DE and others who have departed the current troop. Two of them already have had success with special needs scouts which make them attractive to us. The third is just a strong troop with a good reputation. We are trying to find a camping option for him to do this summer - inside or outside of scouting. That's really the only thing we are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Just move on. Focus on your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hmmmm. It sounds like there's a bit going on here for which we don't have the full picture. I will say this: The expectation of mainstreaming a special needs scout is high. It seems, despite your training and involvement, more than the two ASMs are overwhelmed. Our unit has one austistic scout and several asperger scouts. Their parents are on EVERY trip if only for distant reassurance. They know how fast their child can go from content to uncontrollable. We've never had any issues we couldn't handle and the parents don't get directly involved, they are there to advise. Not sure I can offer more. There seems to be more here below the surface than originally posted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 This will sound like heresy but don't limit yourself to scouting when looking for the right fit for your son and your family. There are many folks in scouting that would be willing to work with you and your son, but the sad truth is this won't likely be the last time you run into such attitudes. Check this forum thread for examples, http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/24489-not-quite-right-in-the-head-our-responsibilities/. 4H is very popular in my area and seems to have more tolerance for parent involvement and customizing program for individual kids. If you're intent in staying in scouts there is such a thing as an Individual Scout Achievement Plan (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-936_WB.pdf). I've never been through the process but it might be worth the effort to use it to document your discussions with the new unit and put in writing interventions and your willingness to step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Ima, I hope you find a troop that is welcoming, and has ASMs that act scoutlike. Our troop has (and has had) several Aspergers and other Autistic Spectrum Scouts. They can be a challenge. I will admit, I don't work well with the non-Asperger's autistic scouts (but since I know that, I let other adults do it, except for safety reasons), but I work well with the Aspergers scouts--I have a brother who was diagnosed Asperger's in his 40s, and a niece as well (his daughter). I wish I knew more about what particular behaviors are causing the husband and wife ASMs to be such pains. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Even though you are leaving, have pity on the SM and apologize for leaving him stuck with these intransigent adults. Make sure he is welcome to your family activities (i.e., any courts of honor or award ceremonies or campfires ... if he is in the vicinity). He might just need the company away from these people from time to time. I'm sure most of the troops the DE rattled off will take you and your son on a provisional basis. Frankly, if you were willing to come camping with your son and could handle the late fees and the trip to western PA in two weeks, I'd gladly dump you on my SM! Heck, we've taken similar boys without their parents. Not gonna whitewash how tough it is for the kids with Asbergers, but it doesn't hurt for the average patrol to have to deal with one. Do keep in mind, that there is some truth to the notion that others might not want to be in a troop with a disabled scout. That's a tough nut to swallow. But, it sounds like your district has a few hard-nosed leaders that aren't gonna give a rodent's donkey about unit membership statistics. P.S. - the "car starting" business ... I missed that earlier. That will be an awesome campfire story in a couple of years once the pain of this little circus wears away! Hope your son can bring himself to retell it from his perspective one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Maybe it's just me...but I find the "entitlement attitude" of SOME special needs parents offensive. If a parent had showed up at one of my unit's meetings and said "my son has special needs and I'm here to "train" you so that he has a successful experience", I would have found that a tad off-putting. Now don't get me wrong...I have worked many years at scout camp and my MOST rewarding experience was working with a "special needs" troop in aquatics. I worked with a Down's Syndrome scout (adult, actually) and by the end of the week had him all the way in the water in the shallow end and getting his face wet. I was complimented later on what a HUGE accomplishment that was for him and how he talked of nothing else when he got home. My point is, as I stated before...some Scouters have the patience and temperament...some don't. We are all "volunteers" and mostly just parents with no special training who want the best for ALL the boys. Good luck in your quest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 We have 4 other troops that would make sense. The one that we were looking at (where the ASM overstepped) is not looking like a good fit for other reasons (nothing bad, just preferences). The other three are recommendations from the DE and others who have departed the current troop. Two of them already have had success with special needs scouts which make them attractive to us. The third is just a strong troop with a good reputation. We are trying to find a camping option for him to do this summer - inside or outside of scouting. That's really the only thing we are missing. Camps usually have options for handling individual scouts who are unable to attend the week their troops do. Check with the council camp director and see what can be lined up for your son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) @@scoutldr would you feel the same if a Navy Seal said "I'm here to train you in wilderness survival"? Or if a sniper were to say "I'm here to train you in rifle and shotgun"? These parents are experts in two things: Handling specia needs kids and in handling their kid. I never find anyone who claims to be an expert off putting. I DO find it off putting when their "expertise" proves false. Edited June 9, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Maybe it's just me...but I find the "entitlement attitude" of SOME special needs parents offensive. ... Agreed there is a fine line between self-advocacy and entitlement. In cases like these, I side with the SM. He sets the tone for how he wants his boys to act (and be acted upon). If he wants his assistants to train for working with particular youth, they should train, no questions asked. If a PL needs to adjust his hike plan or maybe have a disabled kid's parent follow along at a distance or meet at a few checkpoints, the adjustments need to be made before the plan is approved. I'll respect any adult who, being at loggerheads with the SM, moves along and starts his/her own unit. It happens. Make it work. But I've learned when adults malign the youth (or hard-working adults) in my unit through district/council channels, to treat it as a personal affront. I summon what little Christian character I have to avoid vulgarity, but I make my displeasure very clear to the folks next up on the organizational chart* and in writing ... copying the offender and offended. That way, it is clear that I will continue to do what I do and I expect everyone to fall in line .... no "select committee" gatherings required. *Or down, if, like me, you've inverted the chart to interpret it correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imachristian13 Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 A couple of thoughts. First, I'm not sure if there is anything else lying underneath. Second, the reason I don't know is because these folks didn't tell us any of this until last night. Third, we didn't come in the door and say "we are here, we will train you." We were invited in by another scout and his family. We sat down with leadership to determine that they were interested in trying this out. We told them that our goal was to share all we knew to help them succeed for all of the boys' sake. Like you, I despise those who expect "special treatment" for our type of kids. We are only entitled to equal and fair treatment. This being said, if a scouting candidate came in without an arm or a leg, would we be having any of these discussions? Just because ours is an invisible matter, doesn't mean it's any less difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman578 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have a young son who is on the spectrum. He really needs scouts it is the only way he gets to interact with other kids other wise he will just sit in his room and play his video games. Our pack did not seem to care when he came aboard. I told them after they meet him and spent some time with him and I did not get any of those looks at all. One thing the leaders do know that is at this stage of the game I am very close buy in case something happens like the CC decides to play and "unsafe game" like doge ball (my son does not get doge ball) and remove my son from the situation. The CC learns that doge ball is not a safe game (LOL) my and I have some lap time and the other scouts get to play the game. I hope when he is in Boy Scouts that I can do the same thing. Be in the area but not hovering over my son and his patrol. imachristian13 I am sorry you had such a hard time with these too. But you decision to leave is a good one hope you find a good troupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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