Scout W/autism - Troop Asms Having Difficulty - Possible New Troop's Sm Called By Asms - Thoughts?

[Gone]

Sorry, @@moosetracker, I'm not buying the "don't know HIPPA" excuse. Adults know you don't go taking about kids medical issues. At VERY least they don't go bad mouthing a kid and family to another troop. That type of information is SM to SM, not some ASM who's playing UC. Not his role!

 

As leaders they know better. As trained leaders they know better. As district trained reps they know better. As adults and parents they know better. As scouts they know better. That's too many strikes to give a benefit of the doubt in my mind. I'd be at the the CO, district and council with these two to make sure they 1) never do this to anyone else, and 2) note for BSA that their roles should be called seriously in to question.

 

They go after my kid and my Family? The gloves come off!

[imachristian13]

Hi folks...sorry I had to step away for a bit. A few comments.

• I suggested to the Troop that I join the ASM ranks for the Troop back in October. When they didn't jump at the opportunity, I submitted my application to the SM anyway and proceeded to take all available training (I am only short the Introduction to Outdoor Skills or whatever it's formal title is - I will take that in October of this year). Despite monthly reminders to submit the paperwork and get me in motion, they only did so last month (April) and I am awaiting confirmation from the Council on my status.  In short, I have been attempting to be an ASM for half a year now.  
• I am clear that it's a fine line on whether they are going past HIPPA whether or not. It's more of a question - to me - of how they contacted her before we even had the chance to make our own contact.
• We try very hard to advocate for our Son while giving him some room to be his own man. (We have had to stand up for him so much over the years, he had asked us to try to stand back on Scouting. He understands that might not be possible now and we're good with it.).  
  
  Thanks everyone for the ongoing discussions.   

[moosetracker]

Bad Wolf - I agree they crossed the line on both issues.. But, I would smack them upside the head more for the bad mouthing, and educate them on the HIPPA and inform them that there would be no leniency if it happened a 2nd time..

 

I guess due to my personal experience of not knowing that calling out "Bobby, John and Gary" I still need your medforms was against HIPPA rules, when I was just doing what had always been done, I can see someone not realizing they are crossing HIPPA rules if the info of the scout having Aspergers was open knowledge to everyone in the troop and just passed by word of mouth..  Of course when I crossed the line I had been doing Health forms for camp for about 3 years and then Hippa came in and I got my hands slapped about 3 months after it passed..  I just was doing what I had done in all previous years, had heard of it, knew the overall of it but not the details, and figured it applied to medical personnel only..

 

imachristian13 - I would say they definitely crossed the Hipaa rule line.. But, unless they work in a field where it is used, people's perception of it is vague, or who has to follow it..  BSA does not mandate that we all get Hipaa training.. (Watch for new on-line video coming soon)..

[packsaddle]

Just to note:  it's HIPAA..... and this law does not apply in this case. HIPAA applies to health care providers, health care facilities and, in some cases, insurance companies. It doesn't apply to non-professional or casual exchange of information, no matter how unethically it was obtained or used.

In this case the term I applied was 'gossip' and I consider the action to be unethical and worthy of criticism. But it doesn't violate laws except perhaps 'The Golden Rule'.

 

Edit @ Moosetracker: Calling out names for medical forms is not a violation of HIPAA and you are not bound by that law in any event. That is 'incidental disclosure' and allowed explicitly by the law itself - even if you were bound by it which you're not. However, health care facilities WILL attempt to intimidate you by claiming it is a violation...but it isn't. The persons who violated a trust in this case did no more than they would have if they had advertised that 'so and so' had a case of poison ivy. It was a violation of trust, there's little question about that. But it does not cross a legal line because that line doesn't exist for a case like this.

Edited June 1, 2015 by packsaddle

[imachristian13]

Right on the HIPAA misspelling.  I do that all the time.

 

Ironically, the female in this duo is in medicine so HIPAA should be on her brain somewhere.  Whether it is HIPAA-violating or not, I am most frustrated by their decision to contact another troop leader whom we have never even met to, I guess, "warn" her about my son. Even if they have positive intentions - which I doubt but nevertheless - what was their drive behind reaching out on their own like that?  

For the record, just to be 100% clear. My son does do things he shouldn't do. When seen through the light of an NT child (neurotypical), he would be disciplined through reward-based or punitive measures. In his case, however, those methods do not yield results of any sort. These folks have received the majority of our training and have, subsequently, decided that they know better than us.  For example, one thing that just doesn't work for him is to try to "talk him down" or "discuss" an issue while it is occurring. After our most recent incident, the male ASM came to me and said "I just cannot understand why I can't talk him down like the other boys". When I reminded him of what he should have done, he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm starting to sound like I'm just venting - don't want to do that.  

More thoughts are always welcomed.  Thanks!  

[packsaddle]

Right on the HIPAA misspelling.  I do that all the time.

 

Ironically, the female in this duo is in medicine so HIPAA should be on her brain somewhere. 

I agree. If she was involved with your son's medical care she probably would have crossed 'the line'. But anyway she should have been more sensitive to the issues regarding such disclosures. It is difficult not to conclude that she intended some kind of 'warning' to the other unit. It was clearly unethical and unscoutlike. You have every reason to be disgusted by the action and I sincerely hope the unit leader of the other unit will 'spot' this on his own.

[Stosh]

I have found that boys with special needs tend to react differently than what would tend to be expected.   I therefore don't react to what they expect from the average adult.  Heck it even works on other kids as well.  

 

However, what we have in this example is the typical adult's reaction to a very common situation.  They try what they think will work and when it doesn't it's the kid's fault.  There is little one can do to change that attitude.  They have been working on that bigotry for years.

 

As far as "getting the heads up" is concerned, I had watched a number of Sunday School teachers having their hands full with one of the boys.  They did their best but eventually everyone in the congregation knew about this boy.  Well no one wanted to teach his class during the summer Vacation Bible School week, so I volunteered.  I knew I was gong to have him eventually for confirmation so I had better get used to it.

 

He came into the class and I invited him to sit next to me in class.  Like that wasn't a given.  He was up front, he had the class's attention and could act up whenever he wanted to.  Within a few minutes of starting I caught him out of the corner of my eye making faces and  attempting to disrupt the class.  I never broke stride with my comments, but reached over and gently put my hand on his arm.  That's not what he expected.  After a while I brought my hand back and he started acting up again I repeated what I did before.

 

After class he came up to me and said, Pastor B.  I like you I'm going to behave for you.  And he did, The other teachers still had problems with him, but I never did... all the way through confirmation.  On issues like this, never trust the testimony of others to decide on some situations.  After all, the problem may not be the kid, the problem may be you.  

[Gone]

I guess due to my personal experience of not knowing that calling out "Bobby, John and Gary" I still need your medforms was against HIPPA rules, when I was just doing what had always been done, I can see someone not realizing they are crossing HIPPA rules if the info of the scout having Aspergers was open knowledge to everyone in the troop and just passed by word of mouth..

Calling out someone's name saying you need their form does not violate HIPAA. You are asking for a generic form and not disclosing information. Calling out "Johnny I need your asthma inhaler" or "Bobby it's time to take your mess" DOES violate HIPPA. That comes straight from our ASM who happens to be a hospital administrator. They instituted our health/meds handling policy in our troop. We lent them to council so they could do the same for council camps.

 

ANY adult should know disclosing ANYONE's medical condition is a violation of privacy. Sorry, but I'm not buying hey didn't know. That's just idiocy being asked to be excused as honest ignorance. Not buying it. They knew better.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[Gone]

Just to note: it's HIPAA..... and this law does not apply in this case. HIPAA applies to health care providers, health care facilities and, in some cases, insurance companies. It doesn't apply to non-professional or casual exchange of information, no matter how unethically it was obtained or used.

In this case the term I applied was 'gossip' and I consider the action to be unethical and worthy of criticism. But it doesn't violate laws except perhaps 'The Golden Rule'.

45 CFR 164.506 covers the disclosure of healthcare information by ANYONE. It does not apply just to health care orgs, gov entities and insurance companies.

 

I cannot disclose your health status to anyone unless you authorize me to. It's illegal. The only other time I may is if rendering first aid and the disclosure of the information is to your benefit.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[packsaddle]

Nonsense. Here's the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/45/164.506

It doesn't apply unless you're a covered entity. Here's the definition of covered entity: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/coveredentities/

Scoutmasters don't even come close.

[Eagledad]

Well I'm not an expert on laws, but if a SM called me to ask my experience with a scout wanting looking to join their troop, I would be clear in what they should expect without being critical or denigrating of the scout. As some already said, some units are better with these scouts than others, they need to know what to expect. 

 

All that being said, I'm with CP, it sounds like the ASM couple is being vindictive. We have had our share of challenging scouts and I'm sure we don't know the whole story because working with them is complicated. It's curious that looking for another troop is the easier solution.

 

However, whatever you decide to do, I personally would ask for the floor at the next committee meeting and present your side of the story. I would also ask that the DE and a District Committee representative be present. Dealing with difficult adults can be wearing and it needs to be nipped in the bud. 

 

By the way, does the CC know and understand the situation?

 

Barry

[Gone]

Nonsense. Here's the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/45/164.506

It doesn't apply unless you're a covered entity. Here's the definition of covered entity: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/coveredentities/

Scoutmasters don't even come close.

 

You are quoting the policy and the only those regulations that apply to covered entities. The case law the regulations refer to and new/existing privacy law extend to private citizens. You simply cannot disclose someone's medical status. Period.

 

Read a bit about non-profits and "other organizations" that must comply with both the privacy aspect, as well as electronic data protection of HIPAA.

 

Using your point of view, and CO or unit could handle electronic medical information (one part of HIPAA) any way they want because they are not a "covered entity". That's simply not true.

 

HIPAA applies to everyone.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[moosetracker]

Hmmmm... Confusing..  I was told even before HIPAA that my collecting and holding medical forms, meant I was entrusted never to reveal what was on them.. I had thought it had more legalities if I did.. It wasn't just a shame on you..

 

But, I too thought the calling of names was a little extreme.. I was approached with it by an angry mother, whose child was one of the two we had that did have medical problems that caused our troop some problems until a member of our troop took a very lengthy training (I think 2 full weekends) put on by professionals in the area of working with children with disabilities.. The person who took this course was a nurse, anyway she came back and her knowledge helped immensely with him and 2 other scouts after that.. The troop saw fabulous changes with this child..   Anyway, after this mother took me to task on my violating HIPAA rules, I still thought it was over the top that you couldn't call out names of who needed to pass in medforms.. So I asked the nurse since her being in the medical profession I figured she would know better..  She agreed with the mother that I was violating HIPAA rules.. After that I didn't question it anymore..  I changed to calling the boys over and handing them the reminder on paper, although I thought this weird since anyone with a brain would still know why I called these boys over to hand them the paper and what basically the paper was asking for.

[imachristian13]

@@Eagledad - Sorry - which person is the "CC" to which you are referring?  Beyond the local troop, I have spoken to the District Executive.  

[packsaddle]

Individuals? Where are you getting this nonsense? It only applies to individuals if they are part of a 'covered entity'. This has already been answered hundreds of times for churches who, during services for example, call out for prayers for so-and-so who is in the hospital with so-and-so disease or malady. That's public disclosure. They're not covered by this law. For Boy Scouts, this was answered here: http://scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0801/d-flin.html