Prerequisites For Mbs At Summer Camp.

[moosetracker]

Don't know if it changed since son took it but when he did a lot took both lifesaving MB and lifeguard at the same time because the only difference was the hours they put in during the afternoon of lifeguarding. It was something like driving where you needed x amount of practice time. The CPR may have been different too, where you needed real certification before going to camp, as the MB practiced but did not certify. Not sure on the CPR though.

 

So you really do need the muscle strength as if taking lifeguard.

[Stosh]

So Stosh if you taught the MB you would be happy to accept an 11 yo without the swimming MB behind them, and you as the MBC could make that call, no one stopping you. But, you can not force that decision on another MBC who would not be comfortable in that situation.

 

@@moosetracker

 

That is a bit far fetched to say the least.

 

If one is going to teach life saving techniques all the person would need to do is be able to meet the BSA swimmer's requirement.  If I remember correctly, the whole process of techniques is far different for swimming than for life saving.  A swimmer jumps into the water feet first then does the variety of prescribed strokes to maximize the effectiveness of swimming.  That is the goal.  But in life saving the goal is different and thus all the techniques are different.  One needs to keep an eye on the person in distress at all times and if that person goes under water, the spot where they went under.  That means jumping AND DIVING into the water so as to not have your head go below the surface of the water and thus lose visual contact with the distressed person.  They they are to swim to that person keeping visual contact, not swim efficiency.  Of course that is the last resort.  One is to consider multiple rescues techniques which DO NOT INVOLVE swimming at all, rope/bouy toss, boats/canoe rescues, first.  If that isn't available, swim out and present a flotation device to the person, paddle board, PFD, etc..  Then if that is not available, swim a rope out and encircle the person to be pulled in.  As a last resort, physical contact rescue from behind technique.

 

So, what in the Swimming MB is necessary for life saving techniques that probably going to have to be retaught differently anyway?

 

So yes, I would probably accept a FC swimmer into the Life Saving MB.  And It doesn't make one bit of difference what the MB is, the counselors ALL have the option to deciding who can and cannot take the MB under their instruction.  That goes for 11 year old welders, shotgun shooters, wilderness survivalists, etc.  If a scout is really into camping it is not any stretch of the imagination that an 11 year old can't finish the Camping MB before they turn 12 years of age.

 

Arbitrary age restrictions are rather adult oriented contrivance anyway which calls them into question in a program that is supposed to be boy run,led, and decide in the first place.

 

I know you're 16 years old, but you only weigh 135#'s so you'll never pass the CPR part of First Aid.  Well, people I was 135# when I graduated from high school at age 18.  I started high school at age 14 weighing 97#'s.  Some boys were heavy into their Eagle projects at that age and I wouldn't be able to do First Aid MB?  How stupid is that?

[Stosh]

Ummm...  Disagree.

 

An 11 year old student approaches a 16 year old 'victim ' in deep water.  

Victims are encouraged to struggle as that's an important learning element that encourages rescuers to hone their skills to the point that they are comfortable approaching a victim that is trying to stand on the rescuer's head in the water to get to air.

The larger boy, with more years in the camp lake, would surely be able to put a drubbing on the smaller kid.  Possibly to the point that the rescuer needs saving and the younger scout may develop a fear of trying to rescue, and become uncomfortable in the water.

 

Waiting is good.

 

 When I took life saving as a class, I had to rescue a person bigger than I was in order to pass the course.  EVERYONE in the class was bigger than I was except for one girl.     The victim was not allowed to make it easy.  The guy the assigned to me was a jerk and I knew it.  I swam out to him and surface dove as I was taught to come up behind him.  He knew the technique and immediately turned around after I went under.  I watched him do so from below and so I still came up behind him.  Threw a choke hold on him, jammed both knees into his back as hard as I could to level him off and yelled at him to relax, I had him. released the choke hold and swam him to shore.

 

So waiting would not have benefited, simply knowing the technique is what is important.

 

By the way, we don't always get to choose smaller victims to rescue in real life, and a large man hyped up on Adrenalin is going to be stronger than 99% of the rescuers. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Stosh

[TAHAWK]

Stosh,  ever heard of  BillyConn vs. Joe Lewis?  Billy had good technique.  Billy was the Light Heavyweight Champion of the World - back when there was only one.  So he decided to take on Joe Lewis, the Heavyweight champ.  Everything was going fine for Billy until Joe knocked him out.    Hence: "The good big man beats the good little man.."  

 

As you are a history buff, think Finland vs. USSR, Winter 1939-40.  

 

[eagle77]

Arbitrary age restrictions are rather adult oriented contrivance anyway which calls them into question in a program that is supposed to be boy run,led, and decide in the first place.

 

  Stosh,

   I somewhat agree with this remark. All of us can pick boys who can do things before reaching the approved age or those who even though they are within that bracket still would have problems or be unable to complete. It does take the indiviidual aspect out of this. Think in many cases this is set up based on averages, physical size or strength and  maturity. I have been the summer camp SM for my troop for over 15 years (even as ASM) and each and every year I would have at least 1 parent complain that I was not letting their son do a MB at camp that the parent wanted instead of what the scout really wanted or could handle. This is why I think it is so imperative that the SM sit down with each scout and discuss what they will be working on. Who else is going to have a better idea of what they should consider? The scout himself and the leader who has observed the scout in action. I DO NOT TELL them what to do, but give advice. If after the discussion they still want to do it so be it. (only had 1 scout with that and that was more mom then scout). As I see it he should be working on something that will help him advance, that he's interested in, challenging yet not over whelming, and simply something he should enjoy doing. 98% of the time the scouts and I just sit and talk about it for a few minutes and we're done, it's the other 2% that need a little guidence and that's what the SM is there for.

[Stosh]

The issue is choices are to be made, are those choices coming from the boys or the adults?  Are the boys being restricted from opportunities by adult rules?  SM's and MB counselors can make up all the rules they want and I have no problem with that as long as I can find a MB counselor that will allow a boy to make his own choices, I'm good.

 

I was kinda concerned that all my first year boys (none yet Tenderfoot) all wanted to take Wilderness Survival as a patrol.

 

Well all but one passed.  So what footing do I have to suggest to the next group of new boys if they want to do the same thing?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Stosh

[eagle77]

There are some of us who might say you were lucky that it didn't go the other way, 1 boy passed and the others didn't and those who didn't want to leave scouts too. I think in addition our job as leaders is to also teach our scouts about life. In life there are all kinds rules, laws, and other things that may restrict or even prohibit us from doing what we would choose to do. What about the rules that are set up for safety concerns? I have no problem with cutting the old chord and giving the boys some space, but I refuse to simply turn my back and say do what you want. Do not misunderstand me I agree with you, to a degree, but shouldn't we as leaders be helping them understand the actual concept of making choices and what's more living with the choices that we make?

[Gone]

We can be boy led but still give advice that sets them up for success and not failure. We monitor our scouts' progress during the week to see who will or will not pass. Those on the bubble we get them help to pass.

[Eagledad]

@@moosetracker

 

That is a bit far fetched to say the least.

 

If one is going to teach life saving techniques all the person would need to do is be able to meet the BSA swimmer's requirement.  If I remember correctly, the whole process of techniques is far different for swimming than for life saving.  A swimmer jumps into the water feet first then does the variety of prescribed strokes to maximize the effectiveness of swimming.  That is the goal.  But in life saving the goal is different and thus all the techniques are different.  One needs to keep an eye on the person in distress at all times and if that person goes under water, the spot where they went under.  That means jumping AND DIVING into the water so as to not have your head go below the surface of the water and thus lose visual contact with the distressed person.  They they are to swim to that person keeping visual contact, not swim efficiency.  Of course that is the last resort.  One is to consider multiple rescues techniques which DO NOT INVOLVE swimming at all, rope/bouy toss, boats/canoe rescues, first.  If that isn't available, swim out and

 

Arbitrary age restrictions are rather adult oriented contrivance anyway which calls them into question in a program that is supposed to be boy run,led, and decide in the first place.

 

I know you're 16 years old, but you only weigh 135#'s so you'll never pass the CPR part of First Aid.  Well, people I was 135# when I graduated from high school at age 18.  I started high school at age 14 weighing 97#'s.  Some boys were heavy into their Eagle projects at that age and I wouldn't be able to do First Aid MB?  How stupid is that?

[Stosh]

There are some of us who might say you were lucky that it didn't go the other way, 1 boy passed and the others didn't and those who didn't want to leave scouts too. I think in addition our job as leaders is to also teach our scouts about life. In life there are all kinds rules, laws, and other things that may restrict or even prohibit us from doing what we would choose to do. What about the rules that are set up for safety concerns? I have no problem with cutting the old chord and giving the boys some space, but I refuse to simply turn my back and say do what you want. Do not misunderstand me I agree with you, to a degree, but shouldn't we as leaders be helping them understand the actual concept of making choices and what's more living with the choices that we make?

 

My boys have all agreed to just 3 adult made rules.  

 

1) Safety First!

2) Look and act like a Scout.

3) Have fun.  

 

They don't have "Lord of the Flies" freedom to do whatever they want.

[Stosh]

We can be boy led but still give advice that sets them up for success and not failure. We monitor our scouts' progress during the week to see who will or will not pass. Those on the bubble we get them help to pass.

 

The one boy that didn't pass didn't do the stay overnight in the shelter he was to make.  That was on the night before end of camp.  We never saw it coming.  PL came back to camp and spent the night with him (buddy system and take care of your boys)  After summer camp the PL found a counselor and finished up the MB.  The boy that didn't pass has since dropped scouts and it was for far more reasons than just the MB.

[TAHAWK]

As you know, Stosh, there are a number of adult-made rules that Scouts swear on their honor to follow.

[SlowDerbyRacer]

The original question is an interesting one.  Upon my initial read I went back and forth a few times.  I can see both perspectives.  However, in this case I would be ok with the swimming MB as a prereq.  Technically it is a prereq to take the course and is not a prereq to earn the badge and therefore isn't adding to the requirements.  In a camp setting there is certainly a mass element to the badges and it's reasonable to expect for some objective criteria to be in place as an initial screen.

 

In a traditional setting, if a scout went to a MBC and asked to work on the lifesaving MB, it would be reasonable for the counselor to ask if the scout was a strong swimmer.  If the answer was no, there would be nothing out of line if the MBC turned the scout away.  Because in a camp there are so many more scouts, that initial screen needs to be a little more formal and asking for a swimming MB sounds like a reasonable approach to me.

[Eagledad]

My boys have all agreed to just 3 adult made rules.  

 

1) Safety First!

2) Look and act like a Scout.

3) Have fun.  

.

Actually, you originally stated that you (the adult) are the the judge of all three requirements and could take over the scouts program when you (the adult) judged any requirement is broken. I remember because that seemed pretty convenient since Safety, Acting Scout Like, and Fun are very subjective.Is the adult the only judge of the adult created conditions?

 

Which leads to the question: are Safety, Scout Looks, and Fun, adult discretion or adult control?

 

Barry

[qwazse]

My experience:

• In life-saving, speed and quick-wits matter more than size or maturity.
• In life-guarding maturity matters more than speed, size, or quick-wits.

A lifesaving class might just be what a swim-like-a-fish 11 year old needs to help him grab what he needs to make that rescue.

The drowning victim you will never ask the age of his/her rescuer.

 

Here's the thing: if you do have a couple of boys who earn lifesaving in their first year ... you want to strongly encourage them keep their skills sharp. That might mean leaning on them to earn BSA guard or Red Cross Lifeguard when they are 14.