Cub Training - Scout Training: Comparing the two

[Laurie]

My husband recently took SM training, and here's what they did:

 

Training started by splitting participants into patrols.

Training was held three separate nights, each indoors.

What was taught during the indoor sessions was put to use on a tent camping trip, organized by patrol, with the men planning their menus, securing equipment needed, etc--just like a troop camping trip.

 

Cub Scout New Leader Essentials and Position Specific (CM for me) again did not address the outdoor program other than to say it existed.

There were no patrols, but positions were trained separately--like den meetings is how I view it (a different group for each age = a different group for each den leader).

Most of what we learned was geared toward the pack meeting and administration.

 

For outdoors, I took BALOO--loved it, highly recommend it.

Then I went to Powwow, and that was very hands-on, and most of it was silly (songs, skits, crafts--think of being a grown up kid in a den or pack meeting).

 

So, in a nutshell, what we learned when we compared notes was that for SM training, he learned how to organize the troop (big emphasis on patrols) and how to camp. I learned how how to organize a pack and a pack meeting. For outdoors, I needed supplemental training.

 

I think the training was great and entirely appropriate (and it helped that we each were active for a few months before training--we knew what to ask ), and since I've not taken Webelos Den Leader training, I don't yet know if there is a training that helps leaders go from CM to SM (or some other Cub role to Scout role) smoothly.

 

Who else can add to the comparisons? I'd like to hear more about the Cub training, the Scout training, and how to best prepare for adult transition to Scouts when the time comes.

[Eamonn]

Sad as it may sound there are times both in "Real Life" and here in these forums when I tend to prejudge people. Some time back there was a Scouter returing from summer camp and just by what she wrote I had her pegged as a Cub Scouter.It is of course wrong to generalize and say that any one group is more lightly to do something than any other group might be.

There a lot of things different dealing with youth of different ages. We all have seen the Ages And Stages video. However the leap from Den Leader or Webelos Scout Den Leader is a big one. Some Den Leaders who move from the pack where the adults take the lead to the troop where the boys are taking the lead have a hard time getting used to the idea.

Some ex-Cub Scouters be they male or female tend to want to mother the boys.

The training is not at fault (Not that you said it was.) The training is for the leader to lead boys or youth of a certain age group in age appropriate activities.

I spent a few years as a Cubmaster and I found that at times that I had to tone it down a bit. Still when OJ went away with the troop on his first camp in February, I remember thinking how small he looked up against the other troop members and even though I knew that he had the best equipment that he was going to be cold. Her Who Must Be Obeyed, had a rough time allowing him to do his own packing for camp outs. But we grew as he grew.

There are a few "Rambo Type" Scoutmasters out there who to my mind do a disservice to Scouting and the Lads and Lassies that they are supposed to be serving. Still most of the leaders are willing to let the youth manage what they can for the age they are at.

Eamonn

[NeilLup]

Hello Laurie,

 

Sounds as if the training you and your husband took was good. Well within the acceptable range for how training should be.

 

Cub Scouting, as you know, is a family oriented program where adults do almost all of the leading.

 

Boy Scouting is a much more group oriented program where the older boys, in a good Troop, do much of the leading. So the idea in training is to teach the adults that this should happen and how to make it happen. Not always easy on either one.

 

Cub Scout leadership and parenting of boys that age are pretty similar from my observation.

 

Boy Scout leadership and parenting of boys that age can be very different. It can be TOUGH for parents to let loose.

 

So to answer your question, is there a training for CS leaders and/or parents whose boys are becoming Boy Scouts? Not really and maybe that is an oversight. However, part of the idea behind the "training continuum" is that a CS leader knows about the general idea of the BSA, has taken Fast Start and New Leader orientation and maybe even Wood Badge and so knows a bit about Boy Scouting. So taking BS Fast Start and BS position specific is thought to be enough.

 

But maybe we have an oversight.

[Bob White]

From what you shared Laurie it sounds as if the training your husband attended was the one that was retired about 18-months ago, Scoutmastership Fundementals.

 

The current basic training, Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, is very different.

 

The three sections, which can be done in one day or in three sections of about 2 1/2 hours each, have only a vague connection to the outdoor course, Introduction to Outdoor Skills, which covers the outdoor skills needed to advance from Tenderfoot to First Class.

 

As you point out the 3-hour Cub Leader training and 7 1/2-hour Scout Leader training are very different. The Cub training is aimed toward teaching adults how to run a Cub Program at the Den and Pack level.

 

The Scoutmaster training focuses largely on how Scouting is unique by its ability to train youth to lead themselves. It spends a lot of time instruct and assuring adults that with the proper preparation the youth can do the job themselves. Rather than being designed as a transition for cub leaders, it is designed for any adult to be able to understand and deliver a scouting program regardless of their background.

 

The best way I think a Cub leader can make the transition between programs is by doing it the same way the boys do it, through the New Scout Patrol. If a second-year Webelos Leader or other Cub Leader is looking to cross over, I suggest they take the SM/ASM training during their last year in cubbing and offer to work as an ASM for a New Scout Patrol under the guidance of an experienced Assistant Scoutmaster.

 

You will find there are few comparisons between the role of Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. They are both challenging and rewarding, but very different in their responsibilities, methods and goals.

 

One more thing I'd like to add. Nowhere in the SM training does it teach that the older scouts lead the troop. It teaches that boys elect their leaders, and that if you train the scouts to lead, and do your role as a counselor and evaluator, the age of the scout has no relevance. Remember that it's not about how smoothly the troop runs but how much the scout learns and develops in his character.

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Laurie,

 

I'm confused by what you said about your husband's training. But then, I'm easily confused. I got the impression that you were saying part of his SM Specific training was outdoors. What I'm familiar with is the SM Specific training and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS). Both classes are needed for an SM to wear the trained patch or to go to Wood Badge. But they are not part of the same course, they are two seperate courses and can have a completely different set of people in each. Did I misunderstand you?

[SR540Beaver]

BW confirmed my understanding while I was typing my message. Thanks BW! My son crosses over towards the end of February. I will be attending the SM/ASM Specific on February 6th and 7th and plan on doing IOLS towards the end of February. I plan on registering with the troop already trained. I've already taken Troop Committee Challenge and Merit Badge Counselor at Pow Wow back in November. I'm also goint to take Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense in the next month or two. Already had YP, CPR/First Aid, all of my required Cub training and Wood Badge. I'm hoping I can ease up on the training and concetrate on good old Scouting after I get a fist full of training certificates. Just one hour a week! LOL

[Laurie]

SR540Beaver, the course (yes, it was all one course) was offered to anyone interested in training for SM, and it was only a couple months ago. He is now considered trained as a SM. Neither of us ever knew the name of it, and to be honest, it can be awfully confusing trying to figure out which training is for what.

 

Bob, it very well may have been a course that was retired. What is neat--IMO anyway--is that my husband loved it (not just the course but meeting other SMs) and it helped to build his confidence.

 

Bob said: "Remember that it's not about how smoothly the troop runs but how much the scout learns and develops in his character." What a timely comment. This past week has been rough relating to Cubs and Scouts, and several people have wanted to talk to me (not sure why me though). One leader said something that led me to make this comment: if it's ok for the boys to fail, and to do so safely and learn from it, then why shouldn't it be ok for the leaders to do so as well? If a leader has not harmed anyone or blown off the program to do his/her own thing, then failure can be a learning experience--a new beginning or starting point rather than an end. IMO, what we all do is to help the boys to grow and learn in a safe environment; sometimes the leaders and parents need to learn too. Am I wrong?

 

Neil, that ages and stages video was good and helpful. I happen to have most of the training materials (books, videos, handouts) at home, and periodically I review a section. This one might be good for all the families to see in the Webelos to Scouts transition time. It's so hard to be a mother and not "mother" the boys. Do you know what has made a difference for me? Being in uniform. I don't mother then, and it's because I am in a very specific role working alongside the boys or guiding a program for them. Though I've come to know several boys in the troop (their ranks and goals, their struggles and strengths, their desires and disappointments--such a privilege), I've had no role in the troop this past in spite of being registered and available.

 

Training is fun to me. I've been labeled odd by some for saying this, but training brings the program (whether Cubs or Scouts) more to life, enabling me to grow in confidence at times and confirming that I've got the right idea at other times.

[NeilLup]

Laurie, you absolutely are correct.

 

It is appropriate for leaders to try things and fail. One of the benefits for BSA leaders is that they learn too. If we are required to be perfect, that is a tough standard.

 

But this matter of perfection is one of the challenges I believe we face in going from Webelos Scouts to Boy Scouts. In a Webelos Den, the leader is an adult and the boy gets plenty of close interaction with the adult and the adult is their prime leader. Then they go into a Boy Scout Troop and their prime leader (the Patrol leader) is a boy, probably not much older than they are, inexperienced, likely untrained, making plenty of personal and skill mistakes and possibly not that committed. The PL is learning plenty but each such learning experience may impact the enjoyment of the patrol members.

 

And, in my opinion, at the same time, the competition for the boy's time is Disney, the tube, Nintendo, etc. and other experiences that spend a great deal of time and money being as perfect and exciting as possible. It is an interesting challenge and one of the major balancing acts which, I believe, a Troop leader needs to achieve.

 

This is part of the reason for the New Boy Patrol concept. The leader there (the Troop Guide) should be a very experienced boy leader and one who is ready and able to do a fine job of leadership.

[Bob White]

Neil up,

You are on the right track. The solution to Webelos to Scout transition is the New Scout Scoout patrol as you pointed out. But, the Troop Guide is not the leader of the patrol. The patrol leader is a member of the NSP and is "guided" by the Troop Guide. The TG does not lead the patrol. He teaches and guides each new scout as they take their turn at being the patrol leader. It is a important distinction.

 

Laurie, you are right. Leaders should be allowed to learn from their mistakes, providing they are willing to accept that they made a mistake and are willing to change.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Laurie,

 

I suspect that your council has elected to retain the old training. That either means they offer it in addition to the new training or have not adopted the new training. My council has a course seperate from IOLS called OST (Outdoor Skills Training). It is an outdoors skills course that takes two weekends to complete. My understanding is that it was an old course offered by BSA that was so popular in our council that they decided to continue it. It is in addition to IOLS though and is an elective course that can not be used to count towards SM training.

[NeilLup]

Hello Bob,

 

By the letter of the law, you're probably right. As a practical matter, the Troop Guide is probably pretty much of the leader when the New Boy Patrol is first formed. Then, as the Scouts gain experience, their Patrol Leader takes more and more leadership and the Troop Guide backs off.

 

I do note that the Troop Guide patch has two green bars. I have always presumed that isn't just moss growing on the patch

[Bob White]

As I said, you were on the right track. The green bars represent that he is a member of the PLC. Each New Scout Patrol gets 2 votes in the PLC the Patrol Leader and the Troop Guide both vote to represent the new scouts. This is to balance the representation of the New Scouts who are usually the minority of the troop.

 

I would agree that you could look at as a co-leadership in some ways. Because leadership is changinging every 30 to 60 days, the TG adds a continuity to the development of the patrol. But, since the TG is a temporary member of the NSP it is important that the actual patrol members be allowed to lead themselves with the guidance of the TG.

 

As a practical matter that is how the NSP is designed to function.

[EagleInKY]

Sounds like the old Scoutmaster course that combined Scoutmaster Basic w/ Outdoor Leader skills. Now they are two seperate courses. I think the Outdoor Leader course is very good, and I encourage every adult that is going to participate in our troop outings to attend. It gives them a taste of the patrol system as well as some basic camping instruction. The Scoutmaster basic training is pretty boring, classroom based, and not very interactive. I did it to keep up with what was being offered, but don't consider it very productive.

 

I wish the BSA would develop Webelos-to-Scout transition training. Weoffer some of it at Pow Wow and it's pretty well attended. Unfortunately, few Webelos leaders will go to Pow Wow, since their Cub days are about over. I find the boy-leadership model very difficult to convey to parents coming up from Cub Scouts. They start to pick it up as they watch the boys on campouts, but it's difficult to get them to take a hands-off approach to leadership.

 

[SR540Beaver]

EagleinKY,

 

We have what we call Pow Wow Plus. It has courses that covers Cubs, Scouts, Venturing and Sea Scouts. Leaders from all areas attend. Perhaps something like that would encourage Webelos leaders to come to a Pow Wow where they can get Webelos to Scouts Transition training and Boy Scout leadership training at the same time. Ours has proven to be pretty successful. Just about every training available was presented plus some personal interest classes like knots, dutch oven cooking, flag ceremonies, etc.

[EagleInKY]

Thanks SR540 - I heard at RT the other night that they are thinking about doing something similar here next year. I'm not sure how well it will work. It will probably take a while to get people used to the concept of Pow Wow being for a broader audience. The other problem is location. We usually do it at a school, and it's usually close to capacity. It will take a larger venue if it really catches on.