Mr. Gates Address At National Meeting

[numbersnerd]

I also love how the BSA saying no to gays is "standing up for their values", but another private group standing up for their values and choosing to no longer donate money is "blackmail".

 

So you put "Change your policy or we won't give you money like we have been doing" on the same level of  "Thank you for your interest, but you do not meet our stated membership policy". Got it.

[JoeBob]

Is there any doubt that all of this is being driven by the LGBT lobby?  Does the LGBT lobby have a history of being good?  (I initially typed 'behaving', but didn't want to get sidetracked.)

 

Here's my prediction:

1- Gay Leader Local Option will be allowed

2- COs that opt to not allow gay leaders will be attacked, and pressured to allow gay leaders.

3- Somewhere, one allowed gay leader will be openly flamboyantly gay, forcing the CO to dismiss him.

4- The dismissed leader will sue the CO, because that is why he became a BSA leader.  

(I really don't mean to impune all gays.  Gays are not bad people.  Period.  But there is a rabid element that needs to destroy something to serve their 'cause'.  A few activists will join and flaunt just because they can.)

5- Many COs will drop their charters.  CO's don't want to be sued and attacked.

 

The LGBT lobby doesn't like BSA.  Dirty boys running through the woods being uncouth and macho is anathema to well-groomed suave suburbanite sensitive gays.

 

LGBT hasn't lost a fight yet.  They have the media on their side.  Photographers?  Florists? Bakeries? If you owned a pizza parlor, would you tell a TV crew that you'd rather not cater a gay wedding?

 

BSA is doomed.  Get it while you can!

Edited May 21, 2015 by JoeBob

[NJCubScouter]

As I suspected, we continue to have the many who focus on the Gay issue, pro or con with little or no wiggle.  There was a number of other important comments in the address that are being ignored.

Well, wait a second. YOU started this thread and ALL of the comments in your original post were about the "gay issue." Now you come along and comment that other issues in the speech are being ignored? You introduced the subject are now surprised that that's what people are talking about? I don't get it.

 

Plus, if you want people to discuss the CSE's compensation or the relationship between professionals and volunteers, that's great, but it should probably be done in another thread(s) so the subjects don't get tangled up. (And maybe outside of Issues and Politics.)

Edited May 21, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

...

And, it is absolutely partly connected to the reality that the continued attacks and lawsuits under the current system are taking away from effectively focusing where we need to, and also taking very large monetary resources as well.  

 

The lawsuits are (and can only really be) against whatever the official BSA policy is; any legal problems due to that policy can't be avoided by unofficial actions on the part of councils or troops.

[NJCubScouter]

Is there any doubt that all of this is being driven by the LGBT lobby?

Yes. There is a tremendous amount of doubt. The "LGBT lobby" can advocate whatever it wants, but the actual change that has occurred, and is likely to occur, is being driven by people INSIDE the BSA who believe that local option is the answer. Like the Scout Executive of my council, who wrote to a letter to the entire council expressing his disappointment that the policy regarding adult leadership was not being changed (at that time.) Like me, not individually, but in conjunction with all the Scouters' voices that the BSA has finally heard (and partially listened to) on this issue. (I'm not talking about posts in this forum necessarily, but I did take the survey two years ago.) Like Mr. Gates. He is not part of the LGBT lobby, but there was a passage in his speech where he indicated that local option is not merely inevitable, but is the right thing to do as well.

[hicountry]

BSA already has, published instances with pedophile behavior and lawsuits just like the catholic church did and now they want to let the fox into the hen house, makes about the normal amount of sense we see from the BSA. Whatever the argument, moral, religious the bottom line and no one wants to her it so they just try and label you a homophobe....LGBT are perverts, sick and any amount of effort to try and make them chic and mainstream don't cut it with me. It isn't normal for a man to want to get it on with another man, makes me want to vomit actually so I won't think about it. Hey at least we don't have to lose sleep about kids with squirt guns, potato guns or marshmellow shooters, glad their priorities are in order.

 

I saw the $50,000 LGBT thread but didn't comment. Outside of the tangents on religion, a few things I believe cut to the chase......

 

BadWolf suggested a 70% membership drop. The answer is yes but how....from the numbers at its peak or from membership numbers today....and by when. BSA seems to average a 3% net loss every year which accelerated to 5 or 6% loss after the 2013 gay youth decision so over time we will get to the 70% either way. I don't see it happening in a year or two though but it will be more than the 3% decline increase after the gay youth deal.

 

Most everyone knows that kids don't have a good bead on sexual orientation issues till they reach the age where they are aging out of scouts anyway. Some kids act like gays to get a rise out of their parents or stake out individualism. Bottom line it isn't REALLY much of an issue with youth. Adults is a WAY different territory.

 

I think you will see some significant loss as follows....

 

1. Adult leaders who want nothing to do with the politics, the drama, the accusations etc. Straw that broke the camels back, why do I want to expose myself, drops out.

2. Adults who are polar opposite to the decision and is against their beliefs, drop BSA, might go to Trail Life, may just be over it all and done.

3. Adults in units that adopt a LGBT adult leader and are not comfortable, don't want to associate, drop out quietly and are done with it.

 

Scouts....

A NUMBER ONE.....How many parents with a gay leader in their unit want their kid exposed to that lifestyle or any pretense it is normal. Worse yet, how many parents will look at having a gay adult leader and figure that their kid isn't camping remote in the woods with this person and quietly protect their kid and pull out or never join to begin with.

 

How many adults and kids get out simply because in America we have freedom of association. Along with that choice comes freedom of disassociation. Many people are tired of having someone elses lifestyle jammed in their face, being told to accept and celebrate it otherwise you are a bigot, and these groups of people trying to force their way into private organizations and demand to be included ? I think a lot of people are going to be so tired of this drama that they will quit or not join and quietly avoid it.

 

Where is Brave in the scout law ? No one wants to have backbone and say, this is who we are, don't like it, go form your own organization or go pound sand.

 

Now the door is open, anyone want to bet when NAMBLA demands they be accepted, celebrated and forced into organizations where they are not wanted ? Whats next, people who do Chimpanzees in thunderstorms on rooftops ? They are being discriminated and offended, can't have that .......

[Gone]

Here's a novel idea for BSA, ask ALL their members what they want right now. One person, one vote. Winner gets the policy. Loser is free to exercise their conscious and go start their own organization the way they want.

 

That's fair, huh?

[numbersnerd]

Here's a novel idea for BSA, ask ALL their members what they want right now. One person, one vote. Winner gets the policy. Loser is free to exercise their conscious and go start their own organization the way they want.

 

That's fair, huh?

 

Don't get all logical and fair on us now...

[pargolf44067]

And posters like @@hicountry is why I had stopped coming on this forum for awhile.  It is one thing to state an opinion on one side of an issue or another but to spew some of the venom that he did seems a little over the top.  So you don't agree with the lifestyle, that doesn't make them all pedophiles.

 

I'm out!

[NJCubScouter]

Here's a novel idea for BSA, ask ALL their members what they want right now. One person, one vote. Winner gets the policy. Loser is free to exercise their conscious and go start their own organization the way they want.

 

That's fair, huh?

Somewhere in the distant past I made a suggestion that would be fair. Never going to happen, but fair. You take a vote, but it would be of the CO's, one unit, one vote. Then you divide the BSA up into two organizations, each with their own policy. The kicker is that the assets of the BSA and the councils go with the units, on a percentage basis according to the vote. Philmont, Northern Tier, Summit, the bank accounts, the trust funds, National and council offices, Mt. Allamuchy Scout Reservation (and all the others), everything. If Exclusive Scouts gets 60 percent of the vote, they get 60 percent of the assets, and Local Option Scouts gets 40 percent. How exactly to divide up Philmont? Don't worry, it would all be worked out, minus the legal fees. A joint use agreement with rent to be paid based on percentage of ownership vs. usage, or something else. Deals like this are made every day.

 

I was, and am, only half joking about this. (Though when I read some of the posts in this thread, and in past threads, sometimes I think this actually might be the right solution.) As I said, it is never going to happen, which doesn't necessarily mean it isn't the right answer.

 

What I would LIKE to see, and think is feasible, is for the BSA to remain united and for local option to be implemented with everybody (or almost everybody) deciding that regardless of how upset they may be, it would be best to live with the decision. I just don't see why the unit down the road needs to worry about who might be a leader in my troop, or vice versa - that is, any more than they already do now. How do I know that a leader in the next troop over isn't really some guy who killed his entire family and then started a new life under a new name in a new state and is living as "the quiet, friendly neighbor"? Anybody here ever hear of John List? (I don't think he was a Scouter, but he could have been, living incognito in Ohio for 20 years with his "first family" safely buried in New Jersey, until someone called in a clue to America's Most Wanted. I sure Wikipedia has an article about him.) The point is, if you think you are protecting your boys at a Camporee because the Scoutmaster at the troop camping across the field isn't openly gay, you're just fooling yourself.

Edited May 21, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Gone]

The point is, if you think you are protecting your boys at a Camporee because the Scoutmaster at the troop camping across the field isn't openly gay, you're just fooling yourself.

 

I could care less what other units do. They usually do it wrong anyway. Went to an event last night where I saw a few dozen violations of scout policy, oath, law, you name it. I don't care about what other units or scouters do.

 

I *do* care about why people, who joined an organization KNOWING their policy, are on a warpath to change it...against the beliefs of those whom they claim to serve?

 

You don't poll the COs. The vast majority of COs don't get involved in unit mgmt...ever! Poll the people who are members. They pay the dues. They do the work. Without the members the entire organization is worthless.

 

Ask yourself this, how would you feel if you joined something and invested years in its growth and prosperity only to see a minority of people within a voting block of your organization totally change its very basis?

 

I hope you never have to experience a feeling like this.

[skeptic]

Well, wait a second. YOU started this thread and ALL of the comments in your original post were about the "gay issue." Now you come along and comment that other issues in the speech are being ignored? You introduced the subject are now surprised that that's what people are talking about? I don't get it.

 

Plus, if you want people to discuss the CSE's compensation or the relationship between professionals and volunteers, that's great, but it should probably be done in another thread(s) so the subjects don't get tangled up. (And maybe outside of Issues and Politics.)

Here is the first paragraph of my original post;

 

Please review this, as I did, and pose comments based on what it says, rather than emotion.  Lot to process, but I see him basically proposing "local option" as the only really viable response to the rapidly changing political and cultural challenges.

 

Guess my mistake was adding the second short paragraph which mentions "local option", and not noting other parts of the speech.  Kind of thought that would be obvious from the first paragraph; but keep forgetting to be exact or I will get slapped.  So, I will now start a second thread that asks to discuss the other major comments, other than Gay things.  

[moosetracker]

Well maybe I was wrong about the 5 year prediction.. Perhaps we will get the change sooner.. I knew they were trying to wait for the dust to settle from the last vote taken before continuing the change..

 

 

 

Has BSA changed policy in the past with very conflicting viewpoints, the answer is "yes" the two that come to mind are the acceptance of women in scout leadership positions and de-segregation of all white troops and all black troops.. The women went to local option, which still caused a raucous because women would start going to district & national events even if your troop chose not to have them, so much the same stormy sea..  Desegregation was worse with units complying - it was not local option, all unit had to comply (I think the only way you could wiggle out was if you had  unit that allowed only members of a private school or members of religion to join and those were white only/black only, therefore your potential members still were only white/black)..  Anyway, this isn't a first time ever that BSA has moved policy to be acceptable to societies standards, it will not be the last time either.

 

 

 

As much as I applaud this move am I missing something here....

 

How can any court affect the BSA membership policies after SCOTUS has already ruled?

 

The point brought up about BSA now coming into conflict with the discrimination laws in various states is definitely a valid one.. Here is another one, SCOTUS ruled on a single person's complaint he was removed by BSA for being gay..   All you need is a different type of group to take BSA to court over a different issue.. Say if some CO's who are religions and do not find a problem with homosexuals and treat them as equal and valued people, take BSA to court over the fact that BSA promote their program as nonsectarian and yet will not allow their faith to practice their religious views and teach them to their youth through this youth program. Instead it forces them to comply with someone else's religious faith.

Edited May 21, 2015 by moosetracker

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The point brought up about BSA now coming into conflict with the discrimination laws in various states is definitely a valid one.

 

No, laws against sexual orientation discrimination have been around in some states for quite a while, and similar religious discrimination laws for even longer.  It's not a new thing, and a gay marriage opinion from the supreme court won't change any of that.  Massachusetts has had gay marriage for over a decade.

[moosetracker]

No, laws against sexual orientation discrimination have been around in some states for quite a while, and similar religious discrimination laws for even longer.  It's not a new thing, and a gay marriage opinion from the supreme court won't change any of that.  Massachusetts has had gay marriage for over a decade.

I never brought up the gay marriage opinion that is looming, I don't think it does have any weight on this decision be it for or against.  But the sexual orientation is currently front & center due to NY hiring a gay at camp, and when mumblings of the hiring being against BSA rules hit the states ears they started an investigation into if BSA is following the states anti-discrimination laws.. I don't think any state with anti-discrimination laws ever thought to investigate BSA in the past.