Mr. Gates Address At National Meeting

[Eamonn]

I'm thinking that Mr. Gates did his homework before making this speech.

Many of us thought that some of the organizations that charter a lot of units, I'm thinking of the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormon Church would never have anything to do the BSA if the policy against gay leaders were to change. 

Could it be that Mr. Gates had a chat with some of these fellows before making the speech?

I remember posting, some little time back, that I didn't think the change would come in my lifetime. - Looks like I was wrong.

 

Kinda strange as about the same time as I posted that I had just spend a very long time driving a car full of Sea Scouts from Pennsylvania to Georgia. The topic of gays in Scouting had come up. 

These young people all seen the policy as being just plain wrong.

If we were to have a vote? Who gets to vote?

Do you ask an old codger like me or the young person that we hope will one day step up to the plate and serve his or her next generation?

 

As a parent I wanted the best for my kid.

I wanted him to be safe, free from harm.

I also wanted him to get the most out of the time he spent in Scouting.

I was lucky, being the District Commissioner in a small District I knew the who's who.

I knew the guys who shared my values and might have the best shot of passing them on to him.

My guy feeling is that parents will make the call as to who they allow to lead their kid.

 

I'm not sure, maybe when the time comes and I'm blessed with a Grandkid and the Den Leader is a guy who is married to another guy but is able to deliver the program in a kid friendly caring way?

I'll be as grateful to him as I am for all the good men who took their time, used their skill and knowledge on me.

These men played a big part in molding me and making me the man I am today.

Back then in England it wasn't unusual for lifetime Scouters to be unmarried. 

Could it be that these men were not heterosexual?

I never gave it a thought back then, we were busy doing fun and exciting Scout type stuff. 

Today? I don't care, I'm just grateful and thank God for them.

 

There are lots of kids who need you today.

Sadly I see the result of young men who are in jail and I can't help think that maybe, just maybe if these guys had someone who had got them involved in a Pack or a Troop, maybe a Father like person? These guys wouldn't end up having to put up with me!

Please don't give up the ship. -Do it for the kids you serve today.

Eamonn

[Eagledad]

Prove it. Any of it.

Go to any gay pride parade.

 

Barry

[Eamonn]

My education must be sadly lacking?

I've never attended a gay parade.

We don't have one in the small town near me.

Would I have to shave my legs? (Joke.)

Eamonn

[packsaddle]

I must have absolutely nothing to do, responding to this thread. The speech was little more than acknowledgement of a reality that is already here. For those who say now, things like "When this happens I'm gone" or sentiments to that respect, I suspect those bags have been packed for a while because 'local option' arrived as soon as local COs realized they could - and quietly began to - ignore the national membership policy. This was the essence of the "avowed" aspect of the policy of years past....National KNEW it had neither control over this, nor could it respond in any kind of decisive manner unless a potential member was "avowed". The policy, as it was formulated even back then, embraced a lie and National knew it. I suspect that most of those who state their intention to leave knew it as well.

So when the reality of yesterday finally sees the light of day today or tomorrow, in the form of local option, that will at least bring some honesty to the membership policy. And if that is enough for current members to leave, I'm sorry for them.

 

Eamonn's comment about the reaction of the boys is noteworthy. Those very young men and their female counterparts are the future. They are going to carve their own path and the one that's been carved already that some of us don't like is a path that was not pushed on them by a conspiracy by any minority which somehow attained a miraculous power over the vast majority. They chose that path because they think it is the right one.

Anyone whose view has been one of 'moral absolutes' is bound to find conflict with social change, at least those parts which don't fit the 'absolutes'. I can see this. But what it means is that unless an old 'code' was embraced by new generations, social change and the conflicts that come with it were inevitable.

 

Anyone who rejects this reality 'absolutely' will face the same oblivion of thought that most of us will eventually face, perhaps a little more quickly. It would be nice, however, for them to confront the real reasons for their 'conflict', for themselves if not for their fellows.

The day after these members leave: the rotation of the planet will be largely the same, the orbit around the sun largely unchanged, sunlight will continue to drive most ecosystems the way it has in the past, and if the monkeys who swarmed over the planet a million or so years ago change their behavior here and there, the planet will continue to operate as a system, and those monkeys will still have the opportunity to choose their paths to some extent for better or worse. Just like it always has been.

Peace.

[Cambridgeskip]

Scouts UK it's the same story, they have staff and events dedicated to promoting homosexuality.

No.

 

They send contingents to pride events. That is not promoting homosexuality or trying to turn anyone but about saying it's ok to be gay and you are welcome in the scout association as a youth or adult member. The reason for doing that is that many people in the gay community in the UK think they won't be welcome and it's about over coming that.

 

The idea that there are hordes of gays just itching to come along and turn everyone gay is frankly laughable.

[tyke]

"LGBT are perverts, sick and any amount of effort to try and make them chic and mainstream don't cut it with me. It isn't normal for a man to want to get it on with another man, makes me want to vomit actually so I won't think about it. Hey at least we don't "

 

 

I think he protests to much, there was a study showing that people who are excessivly homophobic are usually repressed homosexuals.

 

I'm a gay atheist scout leader and i run the troop with my partner . The kids don't care, the parents don't care It's such a none issue. We do all the usual scout things, and we're allowed water pistol fights

 

Edited by packsaddle: If that first part was not supposed to be a quote, I'll change it back. At first I was trying to wrap my mind around the idea that you wrote that until that last paragraph.

 

Added note by NJCubScouter: Tyke was quoting a post in this thread by hicountry from Thursday afternoon, post #51.

Edited May 22, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[tyke]

.  Scouts UK it's the same story, they have staff and events dedicated to promoting homosexuality.

there are no events promoting homosexuality in the UK. there are, however groups , such as FLAGS that attend meetings and events to support homosexuals and give advice. Big difference. Your born gay it can't be caught or impregnated from being promoted. Those views are so 1970

[qwazse]

'Skip has a point. The reason BSA is in this state of arrested development is that 25 years ago homosexual rights publications were holding up some of their constituents who were model citizens, one of whom happened to be an SM.  They used his association with the BSA to ask society at large to be more tolerant ... not to suggest that that boys were an impressionable source of future members.

[Gone]

Again, I ask, why join a group which has a policy you don't agree with? Can't you just make your own group?

 

It's this mentality of confrontation and tearing down others which I think some people enjoy. Can't get in to the club, tear it down.

 

Be careful, when the pendulum Swings back you may not like it!

[Peregrinator]

BadWolf suggested a 70% membership drop. The answer is yes but how....from the numbers at its peak or from membership numbers today

Assuming that the peak year for the BSA was 1970, membership has already dropped almost 48%.

 

Membership would have to drop 43% from its current number to fall to 30% of the 1970 membership (a 70% drop from 1970). At the current rate of decline that would take about 8-9 years.

[Gone]

Assuming that the peak year for the BSA was 1970, membership has already dropped almost 48%.

 

Membership would have to drop 43% from its current number to fall to 30% of the 1970 membership (a 70% drop from 1970). At the current rate of decline that would take about 8-9 years.

Looking at the 2013, 2014 and projected 2015 loss in membership, BSA is looking at an average 7% year-on-year loss since 2013. That's significant. Edited May 22, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[moosetracker]

Again, I ask, why join a group which has a policy you don't agree with? Can't you just make your own group?

 

It's this mentality of confrontation and tearing down others which I think some people enjoy. Can't get in to the club, tear it down.

 

Be careful, when the pendulum Swings back you may not like it!

Simple - BSA main purpose is not it's homosexual issue..  You will rarely if ever find a group that 100% meets all your morals, values, interests etc.. You pick a close fit and work to change for improvements in the program.. Packs and Troops do this all the time, sometimes it changes through the direction of a new CubMaster or ScoutMaster or committee chair and the changes they wish, sometimes through the committee, sometimes through the scouts.. And anytime a program has change, you have those who think the old ways were better, and some see the change as good, and some really don't notice the change because it was not the important reason they joined the program so old way or new way all the same to them as long as you don't fiddle with XYZ..   Districts and Councils do this all the time - we just went through an emotional rollercoaster in changing the way Merit Badge counselors renew their application..  National Program does this all the time also - The cub scout program is now under going changes although there was major change only 2 or 3 years ago.. Both the changes of 2-3 years ago and the current changes are met with 3 reaction, love it, hate it, makes no difference to me I'll work whatever program you tell me to work..

 

Anytime there is change, there is this sort of reaction from members of the group.. Change is inevitable,  in fact this is one of the topics in the Woodbadge course, I was the staffer who was assigned  to cover this 1 hour topic when I was the woodbadge scribe.. And yes, one part even states those who can not change will leave, and you need to wish them well and thank them for their time, but accept their decision.

[Gone]

@@moosetracker, again you miss the point.

 

If I don't like something, I don't go there. Don't like a restaurant, I leave. Don't like a party, I leave. Don't like a company, I don't buy their product. Don't like the policies of a club or group, I don't associate with them.

 

What you advocate is joining a group you don't agree with and changing them. That's subversive and wrong. Why not just live and let live? You want others to respect YOUR opinions but you don't accept OTHER'S right to have theirs. You see something YOU consider wrong and work from inside to change it, rather than to support their right to have their opinion and associate in a group of people that share that opinion.

 

Leave. Practice what you preach and start your own organization with the polices you want. Why destroy what others have built?

 

Like I said, wait for that pendulum to swing and see how you feel. My bet is you will cry foul and expect the other side to be lenient to you. I would not wish that on anyone. Why? Because I practice what I preach. Wish you did.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[moosetracker]

Local option IS allowing everyone to live and let live.. Forced compliance is not..

 

Yes, I will go to a restaurant with inconvenient parking for the good food.

Yes, I will go to the party where 80% of my friends are although the loud mouthed bragger I dislike will be there also.

I might try to not buy from a company I dislike, but if it is a product few other companies make and I need it, I will buy it.

With BSA my husbands family has a history of being in the BSA my son is 3rd generation we like the outdoors perspective, we like being around other parents with similar ideas on how to raise our children, BSA had activities that interested my son and as an only child the association with other boys was what we wanted..  So the good outweighs the bad.. You join and work to change to improve the organization..

 

Why did conservatives need to change the local option???....  Why do you think it was good for your side to change what was and add that policy, but it is bad to remove it??... Why weren't conservatives content with the live and let live policy that BSA had?..  If local option was so awful, then why did conservatives join and then advocate for change until National provided it for them? According to you, while BSA had local option no one with your opinion to force everyone to comply with your ideas should never have joined BSA and then changed it, they should have never joined in the first place.

 

Sorry, life will not always go your way..

Edited May 22, 2015 by moosetracker

[Gone]

Local option IS allowing everyone to live and let live.. Forced compliance is not..

 

 

Sorry, life will not always go your way..

 

No, local option changes BSA policy. You leaving and joining an organization you can fully support solves the problem.

 

I'm glad you are so chipper about how life works. Hope you feel the same when what goes around comes around. I will feel pity for you then because one really should practice what the preach.