"identify" Wild Animals

[NJCubScouter]

TAHAWK, thanks for bringing up the training syllabus - but it seems to me that they should word the requirement itself better and not have to clarify it in another document that most people don't know exists.  They don't even have to add all of those categories into the requirement, they could just put "such as" before the list in the requirement, so it is clear that it is not an exclusive list.  I understand changes to the requirements are being announced in the next few days, maybe they will improve the wording of this one.

 

Personally, I would have guessed that insects and worms did not "count" as "wild animals."  Technically they are of course, but most people probably don't think of them that way.

 

As far as birds are concerned, I do think that if you are going to count a bird, the Scout needs to know what kind it is.  But on the other hand I wouldn't want to see a list of 10 different birds and nothing else.  Hopefully the adults and Scouts use some common sense with this requirement, which I think is really calling for a variety of animals.

[TAHAWK]

NJCS, you are absolutely correct.  It should not be necessary to read the official training materials to find out what BSA means by "animal."

 

For some years, BSA has had a problem expressing itself clearly.  Many examples have been brought up.  This is just one more example.  

 

It's a shame since volunteers would happily help BSA produce clearly-written statements at no cost.   

[Stosh]

It's 'genus and species' and that's not what anyone is asking for. A boy ought to be able to tell the difference between a bumblebee and a honeybee. Or a bullfrog and a tree frog or a buzzard and a hummingbird.

 And when it comes right down to the details, I was cleaning up a brush pile a couple of days back and exposed two "snakes", 4' long and brown/black pattern on their backs.  Well they didn't have triangular shaped heads (very oval) and their tails came to a pointy end.  Good enough for me.  Scooped them up and tossed them into the bushes.  And that's what 30+ years of scouting will get ya!   

 

I may not have been able to identify the snake, but I was able to identify what it was NOT, and that was all that mattered at that point.

[Gone]

I agree with the folks saying the scout should identify animals such as honey bee versus bumble bee versus yellow jacket. Obviously difficult differentiation such as killer bee versus honey bee I will ignore.

 

@@Stosh, agree on relaxed standards for challenged kids, BSA rules allow for that. I will say that the two kids we have in that category can like tell a Lepidoptera Aglosstata from a Lepidoptera Glosstata.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[Stosh]

NJCS, you are absolutely correct.  It should not be necessary to read the official training materials to find out what BSA means by "animal."

 

For some years, BSA has had a problem expressing itself clearly.  Many examples have been brought up.  This is just one more example.  

 

It's a shame since volunteers would happily help BSA produce clearly-written statements at no cost.   

 

It would seem that way back in basic high school biology we were taught there are 2 kingdoms, one plant one animal.  We have two requirements pertaining to identifications, one plant and one animal.  It is too much to assume that the average person would find this a difficult concept to grasp?

[TAHAWK]

Post failed to appear due to defect in software.  

[qwazse]

NJCS, you are absolutely correct.  It should not be necessary to read the official training materials to find out what BSA means by "animal."

 

For some years, BSA has had a problem expressing itself clearly.  Many examples have been brought up.  This is just one more example.  

 

It's a shame since volunteers would happily help BSA produce clearly-written statements at no cost.   

Haven't read the training sylabus in a decade, and I'm not comfortable simply saying I have some gnostic understanding of the requirements that a scout doesn't.

This is one of those situations where I'd talk to the PLs about "letter" vs. "spirit" of the law, and let him think it through himself and decide what's best for his scout.

[SSScout]

They can get as specific as they can, experience and knowledge allowing.  A sparrow can be a chipping, swamp, white crown , or just a "sparrow".

Around here, a squirrel can be a black or grey or flying (much smaller and really hard to see, they are mostly nocturnal), or a "squirrel".   But sometimes the ID can be the learning experience.  A "black bird" can be a crow or redwing blackbird or raven (really big).

When I do CSDC Nature pavilion, (yeah, not BScouts but still...)  I have the Cubs just sit and LISTEN. Even in the mid afternoon, they can often hear a half dozen different birds,  a chipmunk squeak, a dog, other boys (?), and other things.  The background "noise" can be "stuff" to ID.... And they are often surprised that , yes, they can ID a bird by it's call.

Yes, a worm is a "wild animal". 

[Stosh]

Are the fleas in the flea circus wild animals?  I'm not to sure about the lions and tigers, but the horses and elephants are domesticated.  The clowns can go either way. Am I making myself clear?

[CalicoPenn]

At the Cub Scout level, I think being able to identify an animal as a deer, squirrel, bird, snake, turtle, etc. is perfectly fine.

 

I've got to say I'm really surprised that Stosh, who typically demands high standards from his Scouts when it comes to leadership and organization, is also ok with that at the Boy Scout level.  Seems to me we should be expecting a little better from our Boy Scouts than from Cub Scouts.  An 11-17 year old should be able to know that the deer they are seeing is a White-tailed Deer, as opposed to a Mule Deer or a Black-tailed Deer, even if the only deer in the neighborhood are White-tailed Deer.  An 11-17 year old should be able to tell the differece between a Gray Squirrel, a Red Squirrel and a Fox Squirrel.  By 11 years old, most Scouts should be able to identify 10 animals as deer, squirrel, rabbit, frog, turtle, snake with ease.  Why bother even making it a 2nd Class requirement if they aren't taking it to the next level - to identify those squirrels in the neighborhood not just as squirrels but as Gray Squirrels.  Maybe it takes a little bit of work to figure that out, but isn't that part of the point?

 

ps - if a Scout identifies a squirrel to me as a Black Squirrel, I'm going to be asking him if he looked it up to help him identify it since black is merely a color variant of the Gray or Fox squirrels. 

[Stosh]

At the Cub Scout level, I think being able to identify an animal as a deer, squirrel, bird, snake, turtle, etc. is perfectly fine.

 

I've got to say I'm really surprised that Stosh, who typically demands high standards from his Scouts when it comes to leadership and organization, is also ok with that at the Boy Scout level.  Seems to me we should be expecting a little better from our Boy Scouts than from Cub Scouts.  An 11-17 year old should be able to know that the deer they are seeing is a White-tailed Deer, as opposed to a Mule Deer or a Black-tailed Deer, even if the only deer in the neighborhood are White-tailed Deer.

 

Yes an 11-17 year old should be able to tell the difference between different bears, snakes and deer.  However, those on the lower end of the age spectrum can't compete with those on the upper levels.  And it's the 11 year olds that are trying to advance in rank.  If we hold them to the 11-17 range, then is it reasonable to demand that the 11 year olds know as much and are as proficient as the 17 year olds?  They might be able to know more than a Cub Scout, but then they are all older than Cub Scouts.  I''m not ready to hold my 6th graders accountable to a high school senior's level of expertise in the area of T-FC advancement.  However, the advancement requirement is only the beginning.  Whether it be first aid, animal/plant ID, map and compass, food menus and prep, through games and repetitive activities they should progress deeper into the subject,... but not at the beginning.  The ID plants on the freeway is not for advancement, it's for fun.   

 

An 11-17 year old should be able to tell the differece between a Gray Squirrel, a Red Squirrel and a Fox Squirrel.  By 11 years old, most Scouts should be able to identify 10 animals as deer, squirrel, rabbit, frog, turtle, snake with ease.  Why bother even making it a 2nd Class requirement if they aren't taking it to the next level - to identify those squirrels in the neighborhood not just as squirrels but as Gray Squirrels.  Maybe it takes a little bit of work to figure that out, but isn't that part of the point?

 

Why bother to have it as a requirement when just weeks before these boys were just Cub Scouts.  Surely 2nd class requirements on animals is important enough to have sophomore Biology class before attempting to pass it's requirements.

 

ps - if a Scout identifies a squirrel to me as a Black Squirrel, I'm going to be asking him if he looked it up to help him identify it since black is merely a color variant of the Gray or Fox squirrels. 

 

I put a bird feeder outside my house when my kids were little.  It was close enough that we could watch out the kitchen window.  My kids got bored really quickly in that only "sparrows" showed up.  I was really bummed out until I began to look closely, An English sparrow looks nothing like a field sparrow which in turn looks nothing like a barn sparrow, etc.I got out my bird book and the kids and I got a ton of enjoyment out of that stupid feeder.  My kids can all identify 10 different sparrows in a heartbeat.  But, remember, we didn't start out that way.  At first they were all just sparrows.  It's the same with the boys.  Baby steps at first and then move on to the good stuff.  But one has to help the boys through the first steps or there isn't going to be any more if they get bummed out.  

 

My wife is a Master Gardener and loves the different plants.  We were out in Yellowstone in late summer a couple years back, she bought a book on the Flowers of Yellowstone and promptly set out to find everyone in the dang book.  We had stopped along side a road and were out in a huge mountain meadow surrounded by a myriad of colors from probably just about everything in the book.  She ran around like a 5 year old in "Toys R Us".  It was really something to see.  A car came along and stopped and asked what it was that we had seen that was interesting enough to stop and go out into the field to get a closer look.   I didn't know what to say and was a bit embarrassed.  But the Mrs. yells out, "Flowers!  Flowers, hundreds and hundreds of flowers!"  Duh, how could they even ask!  Well, they got out and came over and wanted her to point out some to them, too.  We spent at least an hour with our new friends from North Carolina.  Ya gotta get them outta the car and into the field.  2nd Class requirement just gets them outta the car.  

Edited May 21, 2015 by Stosh

[JoeBob]

Well, you made me learn something.  I thought that Blacktail deer were a sub of Whitetail.  Nope.  They're more related to mule deer. 

 

Based on appearance and geography, a scout might be expected to identify:

 

Odocoileus virginianus - Whitetail
Odocoileus hemionus - Mule deer
Odocoileus hemionus columbianus - Blacktail deer
Odocoileus virginianus clavium - Key Deer

 

But are you really going to expect differentiation to this level:

North America[edit]

• O. v. acapulcensis â€“ Acapulco white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
• O. v. borealis â€“ northern (woodland) white-tailed deer (the largest and darkest white-tailed deer)
• O. v. carminis â€“ Carmen Mountains Jorge deer (Texas-Mexico border)
• O. v. clavium â€“ Key deer or Florida Keys white-tailed deer (found in the Florida Keys an example of insular dwarfism)
• O. v. couesi â€“ Coues white-tailed deer, Arizona white-tailed deer, or fantail deer
• O. v. dakotensis â€“ Dakota white-tailed deer or Northern Plains white-tailed deer (most northerly distribution, rivals the northern white-tailed deer in size)
• O. v. hiltonensis â€“ Hilton Head Island white-tailed deer
• O. v. idahoensis â€“ white-tailed deer (western Canada, Idaho, eastern Washington)^[8]
• O. v. leucurus â€“ Columbian white-tailed deer (Oregon and western coastal area)
• O. v. macrourus â€“ Kansas white-tailed deer
• O. v. mcilhennyi â€“ Avery Island white-tailed deer
• O. v. mexicanus â€“ Mexican white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
• O. v. miquihuanensis â€“ Miquihuan white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
• O. v. nelsoni â€“ Chiapas white-tailed deer (southern Mexico and Guatemala)
• O. v. nemoralis â€“ (Central America, round the Gulf of Mexico to Surinam further restricted to from Honduras to Panama)
• O. v. nigribarbis â€“ Blackbeard Island white-tailed deer
• O. v. oaxacensis â€“ Oaxaca white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
• O. v. ochrourus â€“ (tawny) northwest white-tailed deer or northern Rocky Mountains white-tailed deer
• O. v. osceola â€“ Florida coastal white-tailed deer
• O. v. seminolus â€“ Florida white-tailed deer
• O. v. sinaloae â€“ Sinaloa white-tailed deer (mid-western Mexico)
• O. v. taurinsulae â€“ Bulls Island white-tailed deer (Bulls Island, South Carolina)
• O. v. texanus â€“ Texas white-tailed deer
• O. v. thomasi â€“ Mexican lowland white-tailed deer
• O. v. toltecus â€“ Rain Forest white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
• O. v. venatorius â€“ Hunting Island white-tailed deer (Hunting Island, South Carolina)
• O. v. veraecrucis â€“ northern Vera Cruz white-tailed deer
• O. v. virginianus â€“ Virginia white-tailed deer or southern white-tailed deer
• O. v. yucatanensis â€“ Yucatán white-tailed deer

[Gone]

@@JoeBob, I just call them venison. Marinate them in red wine, lingon berries and olive oil, then smoke them over apple wood for about 2 hours, then serve with a side of lingon berry-brandy sauce with a side of bread dumplings and red cabbage.

 

That's my favorite part of animal identification.

 

Try doing that with veggies!

Edited May 21, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[JoeBob]

I'm thawing venison as I type.  We grind with no added fat 75% of our harvest (aka- kill), 20% sausage for spaghetti sauce, and a few butterflied tenderloins.  I like to swab them with liquid butter, flop 'em on the grill shortly, and let them melt in my mouth.

[Stosh]

My kids were coming over for dinner just after I got married to my most recent wives.  She had taken it out of the freezer and asked how I wanted it done.  I looked at it and said, "It has prime rib written all over it."  I pointed to it and said, "My piece there in the middle says 137 degrees, medium rare."

 

Along with all the fixin's that's exactly what I got.  Thought I had died and gone to heaven.

 

I told her it was the best game dinner I had ever had, she looked at me and said, "I guess you haven't ever had moose."

 

By the way venison can be defined as the meat of any game animal.  For those who are trying to get rank advancement for identifying animals, you may wish to be a bit more specific than just "venison".  

Edited May 21, 2015 by Stosh