No Water Gun Fights - Yeah Like That Will Happen

[Stosh]

Hmmm, yet National let our Civil War reenactor crew load real rifles and fire and real people with other real people standing in front of them.  We did suggest they aim just above the enemy's head in case anything got down the barrel.  The 30' rule was in place because that's how far the flame came out the end of the gun.  By the way, the crew's been doing that now for 15 years.  And yes, the crew has permission from national, it was directly asked and directly answered.  

 

Scripted battles were one thing, but open and judged tacticals were a blast, literally.

 

So the hypocrisy continues.

[Twocubdad]

First rule of command school: never give an order you don't believe will be carried out. It becomes a habit.

[walk in the woods]

The only other water "weapon" allowed was limited to staff - a couple of 5-gallon backpack water extinguishers (commonly called an Indian pump because of the picture of an Indian on it) and the staff members had to be wearing it and could not refill it.  Guess which staff members got the wettest.

So staff can wear a backpack water pump (i.e. simulated flame thrower) but kids can't use squirt guns because they are simulated fire arms?

[Rick_in_CA]

This is not a new policy - when I went to National Camp School for day camps back about :::mumble mumble::: years ago in the early 1980's, we were told about this policy - and this was mostly aimed at regular old water pistols, super soakers were just starting to be sold in stores, though it applied to them as well.  It had nothing to do with liability, nothing to do with super soakers being more powerful, nothing to do with the fear someone would get hurt.  It had, and still has, everything to do with being consistent with the BSA's (and NRA's) teachings about gun safety.  What was the number one rule of gun safety from Cub Scouts to Explorers?  Never Point A Gun At Someone.  Argue all you want about whether a super soaker is a gun or not - it doesn't matter - to the BSA, it is a facsimile of a gun and for that reason, it should not be pointed at a person.  It's the same reason why the BSA doesn't authorize paint ball (except to shoot at targets).  It's the same reason the BSA does not allow targets to be human shaped.

This rule has been discussed on this forum before, yes it isn't new. But I think it's a great example of the failure of national to explain the "why" behind it's rules. Just look at the discussions on the blog post, and it's clear people don't really know the "why". Here CalicoPenn gives us a clear and concise explanation of the rule. But what did we get from national on the blog post?

Why the rule? A Scouter once told me this explanation I liked quite a bit: “A Scout is kind. What part of pointing a firearm [simulated or otherwise] at someone is kind?â€

Not, "here is the reason", but "I once got told a reason I like"? Huh? Why can't national be clear about any of this???

[Twocubdad]

Huh? Why can't national be clear about any of this???

Because this isn't a safety rule based on a rational assessment of risk. It's a political decision made on emotion. You either nod you head in sympathetic agreement or scratch it in amazement.

[NJCubScouter]

Calico... you know, usually I agree with you but... And this is from someone who, unlike most people around here (I think) fully supports the policy prohibiting paintball or laser tag when it involves pointing a simulated weapon (though not so simulated in the case of the paintball gun) at another human being and pulling the trigger. But water pistols?

 

I guess the silver lining for me is that, being a Troop Committee member, I am not in a Scouting position where I would be called on to either permit or prohibit a water gun fight.

[Stosh]

Is my garden hose machine gun prohibited at the car wash fundraiser?

[CalicoPenn]

I'm not saying it's not a silly policy (I did grow up in the 60's and early 70's where we still had neighborhood cap gun battles - though 1/2 the time we pretended they were Phasers), I'm just relaying how it was explained to us at National Camp School and the rationale behind it.  Back then, folks were probably a bit more sympathetic towards the policy because squirt guns, even though they were translucent plastic, still had the shape of real guns - lugars and 45's were a popular style -  I'm not even sure you can find a lugar shaped squirt gun these days, seems everyone uses some kind of super soaker or "Men in Black" style water gun.  Perhaps it was a good policy that has become silly with the advent of the goofy water guns people use now.

[RememberSchiff]

Maybe this compromise can be made at the Annual Meeting, those members under 18 may use water guns but adults using water guns are barred from the BSA.

[JoeBob]

There goes another 500,000 potential new members.  Our embarrassment has hit the national media:

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/may/19/boy-scouts-of-america-bans-water-gun-fights/

 

Girl Scouts have more balls.

[packsaddle]

OK, we've had our fit of indignance. NOW, just ignore it and do what we think is right. The best way to really get the message across is to politely ignore them.

 

Wait a minute! This could be the beginning of a movement to take back the spirit from the bean counters. We could start with nonsense like water guns and move on to things like actually camping out and stuff. We could restore the spirit AND the trademark. Scouting could flourish with renewal of all that is good.................................NAAAHHHHH!

[Stosh]

Lovely, nothing like having your dirty underwear out on public display for everyone to see.  It kinda reminds me of my mom telling me that if you will be embarrassed if it showed up on the front page of the newspaper, maybe you shouldn't be doing it.  Too bad National didn't listen to their mothers.  This is a classic example of what NOT to do.

[Eamonn]

This came up when it first appeared several years back. 

Back then many of the same things that are being posted now were posted then.

 

My thoughts are that I do see why the BSA has got hold of this, it goes along with some of what they have said about similar "Pointing weapons at others" And that good stuff.

 

I have enjoyed many a good water fight and it is a great activity at camp on a hot day. Better yet if the Scouts are dirty!

 

While not wanting to change the subject.

I was reading a book yesterday about the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

While I don't know how true it is / was it said that all toy guns sold in the North had to be orange so that they wouldn't be mistaken for the real thing.

This made me think about the little Lad in Cleveland, Ohio was shot and killed by a rookie policeman who mistook a toy gun for the real thing.

 

As a kid I played with toy guns.

We played cowboys and Indians.

We played war and we beat the Jerries'.

I of course played at being James Bond.

None of this has harmed me, I don't feel the urge to shoot anyone.

I qualify every year for the firearms test at work, but don't own a gun.

So while I do worry about toys being too realistic.

I think that maybe we need to allow people to use the common sense that they were born with.

Eamonn     

[Stosh]

While open carry is allowed in my state, conceal carry is another issue.  While a Civil war reenactor, I was an officer and carried a handgun and sword, both legal weapons.  The handgun, although black powder, still loaded from the front of the cylinder and was .45 caliber.  Only the .44 magnum is a more powerful handgun.  I do have a .50 caliber muzzle loading handgun as well, but that's a single shot.

 

Well, I do a lot of educational programs on the Civil War and when youth are present, they don't want to see canteens and wool socks, they want to see .58 caliber rifles, handguns, and swords.  So one puts on their uniform, straps on the gun and sword, grab the rifle and goes to the meeting.  In the winter it's cold so you put on your great coat.  Now sword and handgun are covered, you're illegal.  then you get there take your rifle out of the trunk, still in the case, and you're illegal even in the summer time.  

 

So you get Conceal Carry permit to cover all your basis.  You have a gun in the car, stop for gas and the Mrs. is in the car with the gun.  That's not going to sit well with the Mrs. if the police take notice, so now she's CC as well.

 

By the time one sorts out all the what you can do and what you can't do, it's just easier to bite the bullet and go CC.

 

Well this afternoon I was turning over my garden getting it ready for planting this weekend.  All of a sudden I happen to look up and there's a strange dog standing 15' away staring at me  It wasn't any of the neighbor's dogs, I know them all.  We had a little Mexican stand-off while it had a chance to ponder the 9 mm in my hand.  This was no little dog, it looked like a lab mixed breed.   Finally it moved off and out of my yard.

 

Like the rest of the boys in my neighborhood, I grew up with toy guns, I started hunting when I was 10 or 11 years old.  I owned my first gun when I was 12, given to me by my parents as a birthday gift.  Hunted ever since.  Was a member of the high school rifle club for 4 years.  

 

Never been a member of the NRA.    But many would say I'm obsessed with guns.  Yep, I have a whole cabinet full of them, mostly military assault rifles.  I can honestly say I have been personally responsible for putting military assault rifles into the hands of minors.  Of course they were 1843 Enfields and 1863 Springfields but they would take an 18" bayonet so they were pretty formidable.

 

So with that much background, that much exposure to weapons of all kinds  I can honestly say, I have no intention of using one unless I am forced to.  Does aiming a squirt gun at someone trigger some kind of psychotic break from reality and encourages me to do bodily harm to someone?  Nope, not at all.  Squirting anyone within 25' with the garden hose is an almost overwhelming temptation, though.

 

Do I think BSA is taking the adventure out of Scouting with dumb rules?  Yep.

[scoutldr]

One of the lead stories on Fox News this morning.  Made a laughingstock out of the BSA.  Good job, Irving.