It's A Different World

[NJCubScouter]

And if something's not fair?  Get over it, life is not meant to be fair, it's only what we have made it to be.

That may be true for life in general, but I think "fairness" is part of what the Scouts are supposed to be learning from the program. It is at least implied in several points of the Scout Law.

 

In fact, the BSA is very strong in promoting racial equality and in making sure Scouting is open to those of all religions (though not necessarily in the same unit, when it comes to religion.) Adult leadership positions once reserved for men only are now open to both genders. So in some ways the BSA National leadership does promote openness and equality and fairness - but not all. But of course, National does not justify its policies by saying "Get over it." That would probably be more honest than what they do now - which is to make up something about gay people not being good role models, and they force every unit to enforce that idea regardless of whether the CO agrees with it or not.

Edited May 18, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Stosh]

Equality and fairness are two different issues.

 

Women can pretty much equal the effectiveness of men in the military. That's equality.  When women are required to register for the military like men are, then we can start talking fairness.  Parents are equal partners in raising children in the eyes of the law, yet is it fair that the overwhelming majority of children are given to the woman's custody in a divorce?

 

One can idealize all they wish, but life isn't fair, our social systems aren't fair and they probably never will be regardless of how much lip service we give to equality. "Be who you were uniquely created to be, because in the end we're all the same."  How is that fair?

[TAHAWK]

I have not done a through study.   Shot OR kill intruder  gets about 7.5 million hits on Google.

 

The two cases of home owners shooting intruders that appear to have received the most publicity in the last year or so were older White guys shooting young White people and being convicted by local juries of murder.  (The May 16th Mississippi case of the doctor shooting the intruder who had then kidnapped the doctor [to make an ATM withdrawal] is not being given a racial angle so far as I can see.   Reports do not mention the "race" of the two criminals or the doctor.)

 

The deaths that involve "race" getting attention recently are, famously, White or African-American police shooting Hispanics or, especially, allegedly killing African-Americans.  

 

Very few media stories on killing of African-Americans by law enforcement personnel mention that such shootings are relatively (not absolutely) minor in number compared to the far, far more typical shootings , stabbings, and beatings of African-Americans.  One might ask why those deaths seem less important to the media. The victims are just as dead and the personal tragedies are, or ought to be, just as profound.

 

While coverage of violence may be driven in part by the narratives supported by respective media, it is probably driven as well, or even more so, by the historic tendency of the media to go for the sensational, whatever the consequences.  

[Eagledad]

Fun discussion, OP expresses a frustration of how the culture is changing (Barry's translation: No morality), and it's the same old responses; nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as We force You to see it our way.

 

I was driving by one of our local Young Women's Christian Associations (YWCA) and a big sign hangs from the building that says "We Fight Against Racism. That seemed odd to me, I don't know why. Of course there is very little "Christian" in the YWCA anymore. They used to be a sanctuary for all women struggling in one way or another. But Ironically they don't women who's religion believes homosexuality is a sin. AND I'm told that women aren't welcome if they are anti abortion. Very complexe because isn't the YMCA a sanctuary for unwed mothers? Or used to be anyway.

 

And we are suppose to believe everything will be OK once the BSA gives in to allowing gay adult leader role models with the so called local option? Then the next battle will be to admit transsexual scouts. And then the trans adult leader role models. But we can take comfort in that it's not about sex.

 

I saw a definition the other day for all this cultural non-change stuff: "State Religion"

 

Barry

[AZMike]

I'm having t-shirts printed.  Who's in?

We could probably get Class B T-shirts to make us up some. I'm sure they would be popular.

[CalicoPenn]

 

I was driving by one of our local Young Women's Christian Associations (YWCA) and a big sign hangs from the building that says "We Fight Against Racism. That seemed odd to me, I don't know why. Of course there is very little "Christian" in the YWCA anymore. They used to be a sanctuary for all women struggling in one way or another. But Ironically they don't women who's religion believes homosexuality is a sin. AND I'm told that women aren't welcome if they are anti abortion. Very complexe because isn't the YMCA a sanctuary for unwed mothers? Or used to be anyway.

 

 

 

I wonder if it seems odd because most of us really don't know what the YWCA is, what they do, or what their history really is.  Like a lot of groups, most of us think we know about them because of the things we've heard, or read in a newspaper article, or seen in the popular media (movies, TV, etc) but we don't really know enough about them to truly know what they are or what they do.  I would extend that to most groups - unless your in it, you just don't really know.  Those of us in Boy Scouting know what its about and we get frustrated when we read things about Scouting that don't match what we know is true.  I would suggest the same holds for the YWCA, or the YMCA (how many of us still think of the YMCA as a place for men to get a room with a shared shower at the end of the hall?), or the Lions Club, or Kiwanis, or the Moose or Elks?  We know a little bit about these groups, so when we we see a banner on a YWCA building that says "We Fight Racism" which is something we don't associate with them, we find it odd.

 

The YWCA's mission statement is: "YWCA is dedicated to eliminating racism, empowering women and promoting peace, justice, freedom and diginity for all".  Knowing the mission statement, that banner starts to seem less odd.  Reading through their history, seeing them creating the first boarding house for African American women in the 1880's and seeing that they've been involved with civil rights for blacks and other minorities almost from the beginning, that banner seems even less odd.

 

The YWCA has always been a resource for unwed mothers - and they still are (though of course, now we call them single-parent househoulds and single mothers) and I'm not sure we need to have "sanctuaries" for single moms these days but many chapters do have sanctuaries for battered women.  The YWCA has also always been pro-choice, and pro-choice in the true sense of the term.  If a woman wants to keep her child, they'll help figure out a way to make that happen.  If a woman wants to terminate her pregnancy, the YWCA will support them in that in a non-judgemental way.  They just don't judge a woman's choice - and somehow that's made out to be a bad thing by certain groups that love to make a lot of noise and wave banners announcing that the YWCA and the Girl Scouts support Planned Parenthood because those groups think Planned Parenthood is at the apex of a mountain of evil.

 

I know when I've "been told" that some group doesn't accept people because of their views, I like to research it a bit before believing it so I did a bit of research and the only thing I could find was an employee of the Greater Cincinnati YWCA who was fired 2 days after a program given by an anti-abortion speaker, which she had put together.  I'll certainly admit that the timing sure does seem strange, yet at the same time, if that was something endemic throughout the organization, you would think you would see more of it, and of course since it's an employment issue, the YWCA's hands are tied when it comes to being able to comment on the termination and since the woman who was terminated apparently never made a legal issue out of it where what really happened would have become a matter of public record, she can repeat her story that she was let go because she was anti-abortion and the YWCA is stuck saying "it is an internal matter and privacy laws prevent us from commenting".  Might it have had something to do with the speaker?  Maybe - but there may have been other issues that we'll never know about that could have been the issue.  I guess I just need to see much more evidence of it than this one incident which is being exploited by groups with their own agendas.

[moosetracker]

Eagledad is racism consider a Christian cause still?.. I think not... I hear people state there is no racism anymore, and the other side state there is.. But except for skin-heads, kkk groups and neo-Nazi groups I really have not heard any major group especially any group stating it is their Christian faith to be a racist..

 

Calico - thanks for the research.. I was thinking along that line.. I doubted they handed people a questionnaire and if you marked true to racist, anti-abortion or homophobic they deny you membership..  I could see if someone has a fit about another members life choices or the color of their skin in a way that the YMCA has to make a choice of it's the complainer or the person being complained about although they did nothing, that the YMCA would remove the member making the complaint and keep the member that was simply living their life and making choices for themselves..

 

There may have been something about who could use the womens or mens rooms.. I don't remember if that was a YMCA or YWCA.. I do know my YWCA provide men rooms, women rooms and another small room which sounds more like it is for families but could be used by LGBT people.. Otherwise there was an age of when I could and could not bring my son into the womens changing room.. Cut off was embarrassingly a little to early, when I had him go in to change in the mens dressing room alone for the first time and he came out buck naked to complain to me that someone had stolen one of his socks.. And there was a crowd at the entrance waiting for their kids or spouses.. "OK kid go back and get dressed.. You have more to worry about then a missing sock !"

 

Pro-choice is as Calico states for everyone.. Pro-choice is not about forcing people who want to have a child have an abortion against their will.. Therefore there is no conflict to being pro-choice and supporting women who need a helping hand to keep and raise their children..

 

Yeah my concept of YWCA or YMCA is very different, I was a member for a while as well as my children.. It was an affordable summer camp for working parents.. Swimming lessons, work-out center, a place for a pool party or to rent the rock climbing wall.. They offered youth related activities like dancing or trips to the beach etc..  Actually all of it would be help to a single parent, but it was offered to all whether you were a single parent or not.

 

My mother probably was a member of the YWCA more around the time when they rented rooms, but for me I just knew mommy came home with handcrafted hats and metal art wall hangings..

 

It is only through TV shows that I know about the fact they use to offer affordable rooms, and help to the down and out.

Edited May 18, 2015 by moosetracker

[Eagledad]

Lol, All I read is nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as you see it my way.

 

Barry

[moosetracker]

Very true Eagledad.. Local option is we will let you believe what you want, but we have a right to believe what we want.. (live and let live)..  It get's nowhere with the "My way or the highway" from the other side.

 

I will be happy to drop it.. Don't argue your side or drag it into a otherwise unrelated thread, I will not feel the need to represent the other side of the argument.

 

(That statement is not just directed at Eagledad's posts, but anyones.. This thread OP kindof started right off on the topic, or at least was interpreted that way by Rick_In_CA,  but threads like "New Chief Executive Announced" could of stayed clear of the issue.. I even gave a warning not to go down the rabbit hole, yet down the hole we went)..

Edited May 18, 2015 by moosetracker

[NJCubScouter]

And we are suppose to believe everything will be OK once the BSA gives in to allowing gay adult leader role models with the so called local option?

No, not "everything" will be OK. But it will be better, because the BSA will no longer be forcing people to discriminate when it is against their own beliefs. Through the local option everyone can have a membership policy that comports with their own morality - at least on a unit-by-unit basis.

 

Then the next battle will be to admit transsexual scouts. And then the trans adult leader role models.

I think I asked this in the other thread, or at least I was thinking about asking it. Can anyone point to an actual BSA policy, statement, press release, rumor, legal brief or anything by the BSA on that subject? I don't know of anything.

 

And just as a personal anecdote on the YWCA, in the first neighborhood in which I grew up, the local "Y" was a YM/WHA. That's H, as in Hebrew. (Though you didn't have to know Hebrew to join, and as far as I know you didn't have to be "Hebrew", but I think most of the families who put their kids into the programs there, were.) Unfortunately, given the changing demographics of that area in the late 60's/early 70's, that Y is no longer a Y to have any policies about anything, and very few (if any) H's live in the area anymore.

Edited May 18, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[AZMike]

 

Pro-choice is as Calico states for everyone.. Pro-choice is not about forcing people who want to have a child have an abortion against their will.. Therefore there is no conflict to being pro-choice and supporting women who need a helping hand to keep and raise their children..

 

 

Does the daughter (or son) get a say in that choice?

[moosetracker]

Does the daughter (or son) get a say in that choice?

Problem is we disagree on when an embryo is a viable human life form and when it is just dividing cells.. So the daughter/son does not yet exist to have a say in anything..

[packsaddle]

Then the next battle will be to admit transsexual scouts. And then the trans adult leader role models.

 

Fella, that train has already left the station. You just didn't know it.

[qwazse]

Fella, that train has already left the station. You just didn't know it.

So, that Dr.'s appointment is still on?

[qwazse]

Problem is we disagree on when an embryo is a viable human life form and when it is just dividing cells.. So the daughter/son does not yet exist to have a say in anything..

That one has an easy solution. Give the embryo a few years, then a gun with one bullet. If he/she didn't really want to have a say, he/she could act accordingly. If he/she is offended that you'd even think he/she wouldn't, you'd better run.

 

What we really disagree on here is how important it is to have more people on the planet.