Important Ideas About The Patrol Method

[Stosh]

No way around it, NSP has to be more adult run for the scouts to grow. The BSA added troop guides to help the problem, but they don't make up for experienced patrol mates. Adults have to step in our the boys quit. Even stosh admitted this as he talked about working with his four scouts the last year.

 

Barry

No I didn't.  

 

I lost one boy due to moving out the area, but he's back and the boys are on his case about coming back to the unit.

 

Second boy comes and goes irregularly because he struggles with school.  If his homework isn't done he doesn't come.

 

I have had only 1 boy quit.  He found out how much work it was going to be and being an only child with a mother that did everything for him, he decided it was more comfortable at home.  He didn't want to be in scouts in the first place, but his mother thought it would help him mature a bit more than he had.  She was more upset about him quitting than anyone else.

 

On the other hand the new Webelos boy we took on this spring has been working with the patrol on a number of different advancements, tent inspections, flag ceremonies, etc. just like all the rest of the boys.  He's really a dedicated kid.  Comes from a broken home.  Dad lives in town, he lives with his mom 45 miles away.  He's there every week.  So I have pretty much a pretty good average of retention in my unit and I know it's not the program or the way we run boy-led, patrol-method that is causing boys to leave, back off on attendance or whatever.

[Stosh]

We're currently using "age based" patrols.  There's two patrols - 1 ranging from 15-16 yrs old, the other ranging from 10-12 yrs old. 

 

When we started talking about splitting into 2 patrols based on our size, the Scouts fell into these groups by themselves.  This is how they separated themselves for games & it was natural for them.

 

Gee, maybe you should have been a bit more adult heavy handed and this wouldn't have happened.    In the long run, I've found I have had far less hassles with the set up you describe.  If this is what the boys want, this is what the boys get.

[Eagle94-A1]

As to the aside about the current BSHB not being interesting, I second that. When I got my BSHB, Green Bar Bill's writing got me hook, line, and sinker. I've tried to read the current one and it's blah.  My son, got it, read a few pages, and now only looks at it when he has to.

 

Going back to retention, and spinning advancement into the mix as well,  When all the hoopla of NSPs and Operation First Class came out in August 1989, Read somewhere how this was based on those Scouts getting First Class within a year tend to saty longer and it's best to keep all the new scouts together workign on First Class.  My initial thoughts were, "How many of the Scouts dropping are in "Hiking and Camping troops" that are doing outdoor activities every month?" That is what kept me active.

 

As for the concept of NSPs,  I am wondering if the concept came about from LDS units and their separation of 11 year old Boy Scouts from the rest of the troop? Again you never heard of a New Scout Patrol in any of the literature until 1989, and when my troop was being a guinea pig for it in 1987, we dropped it after a year as it did not work as well as what we had been doing, i.e. mixed age patrols.

[TAHAWK]

Eagle, you got it in one.  Troops and patrols with more active program tend to have more advancement,  That has been true in every district I have been in (5).  The numbers don't lie. In my newer district, the troop that had the most boy-days of camping in 2014 also was No. 1 in advancement, as they were in 2010, 2011, and 2012.  They missed the advancement prize in 2013 - whne they missed the camping prize.  The "Operation" should have been to encourage active outdoor program.  But the people in the Advancement Bubble want to do their thing, just like the folks in the Journey to Excellence Bubble.

 

BSA is discombobulated by all these semi-autonomous teams which won't play together. 

[Eagle94-A1]

BSA is discombobulated by all these semi-autonomous teams which won't play together. 

Don't remind me. I use to work for National Supply once upon a time, and I scratched my head a lot with someof the stuff they were marketing. Anyone remember the Arrow of Light belt buckle for a leather belt?

[fred johnson]

Sadly you had to finish with hypothetical make believe to impress your point because you don't beleave the rest of your post can hold your opinion.

 

There is no mention of age based patrols in the BSA or Baden Powells scout's because there wasn't any need for the definition until 1990 when the program was change to add New Scout Patrols (NSP). Until then scouts joined troops individually when they qualified by age, not in groups of Webelos the way it is now. That is when the terms aged based and boy run became descriptive terms of the troop program.

 

You may find old timers like me who were in same age patrol before 1990, but it was rare. So scouting not only survived with mixed age patrols for almost 80 years, the organization became legend. Now you may may want to debate what defines a tradition scout program, but for me it was up until age based patrols were introduced in 1990.

 

I don't know why you feel you have to demonize mixed age patrols to impress your point. I respect that your style of leading lends itself better with same age scouts. However, I don't respect your style of trying make your point. Can't you just say I'm more comfortable with same age patrols and let that stand for your opinion?

 

I have a lot of experience with both mixed age and same age patrols so I can discuss with the best of them on both sides.

 

Barry

 

I apologize if I'm strong opinionated on this topic, but I've seen both and I do have a very very strong opinion on this.  It just reflects my experience.  We keep giving lip service to the statement that the patrol is the fundamental unit of scouting and the heart of all success.  But then we create unnatural patrols.  Joining one-by-one or as a group isn't the issue.  And age just reflects potential friendships.  It's those friendships that keep kids coming back and wanting to do things together.  

 

IMHO, we should measure success by how much the patrol wants to stay together and do things TOGETHER AND ON THEIR OWN.  Go hiking.  Go canoeing.  Play games.  Or just hang together.  Kids will sign up and participate when they see their own friends show up and participate.  But if a patrol decides to go camping or canoeing or ... and they see one friend going and the rest being very different ages / state, the vast majority of scouts won't go.  And some patrols will even be prevented from some desirable activities because their whole patrol won't be able to go due to a 16 year old having very different capabilities than an 11 or 12 year old.  

 

My experience is that you may be able to get kids to stick around with their patrol for duties, but they will spend time and want to be with their friends.  That's the natural order.  

 

It's by leveraging those friendships that we really get the kids working together and owning the program.  

 

There is no perfect solution and IMHO some leaders experiences tint the results.  But I want my kids to want to stay with their patrol their whole scouting career.  

[TAHAWK]

"A patrol is a small group of friends"

[fred johnson]

"BP in "Scouting for Boys" simply said 6 to 8 boys.  BP said patrols choose their own leader; not assigned.  No discussion about age.  That's it."

 

B-P's Patrol System had the patrol leader "chosen" by the "officer" (Scoutmaster).  Scouting for Boys, Part I at pp.20 and 35.

 

See also, Roland Phillips, The Patrol System and Letters to a Patrol Leader, C. Arthur Pearson, Ltd.,(1916), forward by Lord Baden-Powell, Chief Scout., at pp. 6-7.

 

We, of course, supposedly use Bill's Patrol Method. in which the Patrol Leader is elected, merely an option when BSA began.

 

Can you give the link that you used to measure pages 20 and 35?  I've looked on the copy here and find no such quote.  I used http://www.skautai.lt/document/download/id/1982 and found Camp Yarn #4 saying about patrol leaders ... "Each patrol chooses a boy as leader.  He is called the Patrol Leader."   I will give you that when starting a troop, there are scoutmaster handbooks originally that talked about selecting promising kids to be taught skills so they could pass them on and become leaders.  But that is very different than an ongoing patrol leader selection practice.        

 

Your Roland Phillips document is fascinating.  I will be reading it.  http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf  On page six, it repeatedly says patrols are a "small permanent group".  Other than that, his comments hit on both sides of patrol structures.  But I do fully agree with a "permanent group" as being a key element.  That is what promotes scout spirit and loyalty.  

 

BSA has always promoted scouts choosing their own leaders with some limitations.  

 

...

 

I am less against mixed age patrols as much as I'm very very much against assigning patrols and assigning the leaders.  Let the scouts choose.  It's their program.  

[pargolf44067]

 

...

 

I am less against mixed age patrols as much as I'm very very much against assigning patrols and assigning the leaders.  Let the scouts choose.  It's their program.  

 

Totally agree!

[TAHAWK]

What you used is not what BP wrote.  It is a rewrite,  I used a reproduction of the 1908 language printed in 1957 on the centennial of BP's birth (Centenary Facsimile Edition)

 

Camp Fire Yarn. - No. 2.

. . .

One boy is then chosen as Patrol Leader to command the patrol, and he selects another boy to be the Corporal or second in command."

 

 

Camp Fire Yarn. -No. 3.

...

uch boys . . . can form themselves into Patrols and become Boy Scouts.

 

   For this purpose officers are necessary.

. . .

A Scout Master is an officer who has charge of a troop. A troop consists of not less than three patrols.

 

A Patrol Leader is a scout appointed to command a patrol.

 

 

As for Roland Phillips, The Patrol System and Letters to a Patrol Leader,   C. Arthur Pearson, Ltd.,(1916), forward by Lord Baden-Powell, Chief Scout, it says:

 

"If a boy is to be appointed Patrol Leader it is important that his age should not be against him. [i.e., he should be older rather than younger unless "quite exceptional"].

. . 

"A Schoolmaster frequently says, 'I have appointed my leaders as the Chief wishes, but they are not able to lead thier patrols except in theory'. . . . The anwser to this is that it is the principle [task] of every Scoutmaster in the movement to see that his Patrol leaders are able to lead their Patrols."

 

 

 

There is more along these lines, but my links to old threads here do not work any more.  I am told that today most Patrol leaders in the UK are still appointed.  Patrol SYSTEM.

[Stosh]

It always amazes me that there are those out there that promote the mixed patrols as the way to go.  Basically they grab up their literature and show chapter and verse how it's done.  It works for them.

 

Last week I went out for the first time with the local Canoe and Kayak Club.  The Mrs. and I got out there and had our kayaks in the water all set to go.  Everyone but one had kayaks.  It is a known fact that a kayak is quicker and more agile than a 17' canoe.  I figure he's going to hold us back and make the trip longer than what the Mrs. and I were used to.  Well, we're new so we will play nice.  The guy got his kevlar canoe in the water.  Okay, that's a plus one, weight makes a difference.  Then he put his lawn chair over the middle thwart.  Okay that's a -5, everyone knows you paddle from the rear in a canoe.  Every book ever written about canoeing tell you that's how you paddle a canoe, Only exception is poling from the front.  Well it was getting interesting.  He now brings out his kayak paddle, and gets in, he's ready to go.  Seriously?  In all the years of canoeing and kayaking I have never seen such a thing.  But it made sense.  He paddled twice as much with the kayak paddle than he would have with a single blade canoe paddle and he didn't need to learn any j-strokes, sweeps, or feathering.  He was in the middle of the canoe so he maximized his turns and the high center of gravity allowed him to simply lean to leverage his canoe to the edge for an even sharper more agile turn radius.  Needless to say he did not hold anyone back on the float.  And what book did he learn that from?  NONE, just plain tried it out and it worked better than doing it by the book.

 

Maybe I'm not doing it right by the literature of the BSA, but I do have a pretty good grasp of patrol method, patrol selection by the boys, groupings by friends, patrols that have age identities that don't need to be broken up to accommodate special activities, older boys that are involved and functioning. leadership and POR's that actually don't need to be told what to do and they are surprisingly functional, and the new boys come on line and are running pretty smoothly within their first 6 months especially if they all get to summer camp that first year.  My TG is the most valuable person in the troop for promoting and establishing the patrol-method from an early age on and my Instructors are plenty busy with the T-FC NSP.

 

With a new troop and no older TG, my boys struggle a lot, but they are figuring it out as they go and there's no "that's not the way we do things around here" mentality, they are making up the rules as they go along and it's rather impressive.  And because they don't have an option they are all a NSP.  They do ask me a lot of questions, all of which I answer as I support them in their struggles.  I know of no literature from BSA that explains how to start a new troop with nothing but Webelos boys.  Two years from now these boys will know more about scouting than most 13 year olds because they have taught themselves to be successful.

[Eagledad]

It always amazes me that there are those out there that promote the mixed patrols as the way to go.  Basically they grab up their literature and show chapter and verse how it's done.

Sheesh, we get. You have demeaned, belittled, demonized any scouter who beleaves in mixed age patrols. You make up scary hyperbole of adults with successful troops and now demonize them to the point of bullying. If you converted anybody, it was long before your story of the scary mean old boy run mixed age patrol adult leader trolls under the bed. If it helps you feel better about yourself, I concede that stosh scouts is better than traditional scouting. Ok that is silly, nothing is better than traditional scouting; but your juvenile bullying is embarrassing for scouters in an adult scouting forum. MOVE ON!

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Since when is talking about someone's creative alternatives to solving problems, belittling others?  If mixed patrols work for you.  Fine, hang in there.  They don't work for my boys so I allow them to do what they wish to make it work for them.  I like it because it is far less hassle for me.  If someone can benefit from that, then that's fine.  If not, ignore the thread and move on.  Maybe after a post like that one ought to review their own position and take their own advice.

 

This will be my last response to your petty tirades.  You may have the last word.

[Eagle94-A1]

One of the things I've learned over the years is that being a SM is not, in the traditional sense of the words,  a "science", but an "art." Things that are done in one area, may not work in another. As a SM, you got to know your Scouts and adapt to them.

 

Best example is the New Scout Patrol. I told you about my 2 negative expereinces with it back in the day with my troop growing up. Specifically when I was the PL for them (today it would be called TG since I was appointed by the SPL; this was before NSPs and TG were in the literature), and when I brand new troop of 8 Scouts wanted to work with us until they could get their feet on the ground ( they ended up merging with us and splitting the "troop" amongst my troop's existing patrols). It didn't work.

 

Today however, my son's troop uses the NSP. It's effective. Is it perfect, No. Do we have issues at times, Yes. But overall it has worked for the troop.

 

One of the things I encourage is to read EVERYTHING (emphasis) on the Patrol System/Method. Talk to other leaders, especially the old fogeys, about things that have worked and not worked AS WELL AS THE REASONS WHY (emphasis again). Get as much info as possible form all sources.

 

THEN discount any that are adult oriented, except for Green Bar Bill's 6 month training regime in the 3rd ed. SMHB ( he starts off adult oriented, and progresses to fully Scout run by month 6). Work with your Scouts and use what is needed to get them running the troop.

[Gone]

Re/ older boy patrols (13 and younger, 14 and older patrols) we've tried these and they didn't work for us.

 

Re/ new boy patrols, these did not work either.

 

The mixed patrols worked best. Older shouts who have earned the right go in to Leadership Corps. That seems to have worked for us.