Where Do Knots Come From, Daddy?

[Eagle94-A1]

Question as I'm not as active in the OA as I used to be. Is there still a formula for determining the number and type of Vigils?

 

I remember a few years ago, it use to be 2 Vigil candidates for a lodge with 0-100 members, then an additional Vigil candidate for each 50 additional members, i.e. 150 members= 3 Vigil candidate, 500 members equals 10 candidates etc. Aldo the formula included a minimum of 50% of the candidates had to be youth. So a lodge there is a possibility that a lodge would have 10 spots for candidates, but fewer would get elected.

 

Forgot, while a professional did NOT count in the limit, they DID count in the percentage.

 

Old fogey's should not be outnumbering the youth.

[Eagle94-A1]

Forgot to add, sometimes you get G.A.S.er Vigils, who you don't see for years. And then when they come back, it's full throttle.  We had a number of those in the lodges I've been in. And a good friend of mine who went through the Vigil with me hasn't been active in Scouting since. Between college and the Marines, he doesn't have the time. And it was iffy if was going to get leave to attend his Vigil. As it was, we were late due to his flight.

[BDPT00]

Youth can always nominate adults, and those nominations carry a lot of weight during the selection process.  I recall my wife's Silver Beaver.  The selection and presentation was done entirely by a youth.  Those concerned about Vigil selections should remember that those selections are made by youth.  No adults are allowed a vote. 

[JoeBob]

Character is what a person does when no one is watching.   The attitude of the adult is not dependent on the witness of others.  Sometimes one does things just because it's the right thing to do.  

 

Stosh, that's some unusually twisted logic you're weaving with!

so:

 

Character is what a person does  (wears a chestful of knots) when no one is watching. When no one is at RT?  Ah, no YOUTH at RT.

The attitude of the adult (Blowing his own horn) is not dependent on the witness of others. sounds best in an empty room.  Especially if it's a kudu horn?

Sometimes one does things just because it's the right thing to do.  And sometimes stroking your own ego is the right thing to do.

[skeptic]

There is a reason why the general term is Scouting; that covers youth and adult participation.  Of course Vigil populations are heavily adult in most, if not all lodges.  As pointed out, even if a youth becomes Vigil, it is generally either in the "gray area", or close to it.  Then they go off to school, start adult lives, and if we are lucky, eventually reappear as Scouters.  So they join the lodge where they are, as adult Vigils.  My understanding is that adults elected CANNOT be greater in number each yea than youth.  So, if there is a shortage of qualified youth, then there will be fewer adults elected as well each year.  

 

Most lodges would not survive without those adult members, many whom are Vigil because they have been there a long time and continue to support the program.  

 

Continue to NOT understand why there seem to be so many individuals that find fault with adults living the program in its many variations.  At the same time, I do feel there should be more effort to include the youth in decisions in many areas in which they once were predominate.  Adults are still there as coaches and mentors, not to actually run the program.

[NJCubScouter]

Personally I see nothing wrong with wearing the knots you have earned.

 

I have earned three knots, and wear three knots: The Arrow of Light, Cub Scout Leader's Training and Boy Scout Leader's Training. Nobody will ever accuse me of looking like a "Banana Republic general" because I just don't have that many knots. But I don't think it makes much sense to criticize other Scouters for wearing what they have earned. Our SM (who I think wears 3 or 4 knots) sometimes teases one of our other leaders for wearing what is, one must admit, a chestful of knots. But if you look at the knots he is wearing (and if you don't know what one is, he is certainly happy to tell you), I can't think of a single one that he should take off. Should he take off the "heroism" knot (don't know the exact level of the award he was given) he earned for saving the life of a fellow Scouter years ago? Should he take off the Silver Beaver knot? The District Award of Merit? I haven't earned any of those. There is nothing wrong with wearing them if you've earned them.

 

Back to the original point of this thread: When I found that I was eligible for my third knot, there was no "system" in place for me to be nominated nor any person in charge of training or adult awards in my unit. I was hoping there was, but there wasn't. So I filled out the card myself and presented it to my CC for signature. It was an awkward situation and I did not meet with the warmest reception. Many of the Scouters in my troop simply don't go for the knots, partly for that reason. But I got the paperwork done and I got the knot.

Edited May 17, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Stosh]

Stosh, that's some unusually twisted logic you're weaving with!

so:

 

Character is what a person does  (wears a chestful of knots) when no one is watching. When no one is at RT?  Ah, no YOUTH at RT.

The attitude of the adult (Blowing his own horn) is not dependent on the witness of others. sounds best in an empty room.  Especially if it's a kudu horn?

Sometimes one does things just because it's the right thing to do.  And sometimes stroking your own ego is the right thing to do.

I believe the comment was made in reference to wearing one's uniform, not just the knots.

 

How many scouters out there dumped on their aging out Eagles to not wear their AOL, Religious and Eagle knots on their adult uniforms because it makes them look like Banana Republic Generals?  I suspect... well... none?  Am I close?

 

As for me?  Well the Commissioners' Meeting is just before RT, so I am always wearing my UC uniform and it has no knots on it.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Stosh

[LeCastor]

The OA chapter has its meetings as the same time as our Roundtable, so there are always youth around to see the adult volunteers in uniform. However, regardless of whether or not there are youth present, it is still a good idea, in my opinion, to wear the uniform and help play the game of Scouting. If we are ashamed to wear the uniform then it's going to show to the Scouts. Personally, I wear my uniform(s) to each Scouting-related meeting I go to...and that's a lot.  (Who doesn't wear multiple hats these days?)

 

Wear the knots if you want to; turn in the paperwork if you want to.  Don't wear knots if you don't want to; wait until someone turns in the paperwork for you.  Either way, let's not judge other Scouters for their uniform choices.  

 

Are we still carrying this thread..?

[Eagle94-A1]

The one time I showed up to a Scouting event not in uniform was RT. I needed to drop something off before I left town, and I was literally all packed up with the family on my way to Atlanta and the church was on the way to the interstate.  BOY WAS I RIBBED!

[Stosh]

The one time I showed up to a Scouting event not in uniform was RT. I needed to drop something off before I left town, and I was literally all packed up with the family on my way to Atlanta and the church was on the way to the interstate.  BOY WAS I RIBBED!

 

Did they recognize you without your uniform?

[Eagle94-A1]

One or two didn't' but most did and harassed me.

[Stosh]

When my boys come to meetings without uniform, the PL's introduce the "visitor" to the group.    Yes, we do bully, tease, hassle, harass the boys at various times.  When the scout explains why he doesn't have his uniform, the excuse has to be a great one, like a bear ate it, I gave it to the little old lady crossing the street, my sister needed it for prom (my personal favorite), etc.  The "truth" doesn't count.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

When my boys come to meetings without uniform, the PL's introduce the "visitor" to the group.    Yes, we do bully, tease, hassle, harass the boys at various times.  When the scout explains why he doesn't have his uniform, the excuse has to be a great one, like a bear ate it, I gave it to the little old lady crossing the street, my sister needed it for prom (my personal favorite), etc.  The "truth" doesn't count.  

 

We had a patrol of the year recognition, and the weekly uniform inspection was part of it. We had guys showing up from games and practices in their sports uniform, and their scout uniform on a hanger to change into.

 

And you already heard my stories about the Winter Formal/COH night and Ring Ceremony/ECOH/Ring Dance night.

[walk in the woods]

Question as I'm not as active in the OA as I used to be. Is there still a formula for determining the number and type of Vigils?

 

I remember a few years ago, it use to be 2 Vigil candidates for a lodge with 0-100 members, then an additional Vigil candidate for each 50 additional members, i.e. 150 members= 3 Vigil candidate, 500 members equals 10 candidates etc. Aldo the formula included a minimum of 50% of the candidates had to be youth. So a lodge there is a possibility that a lodge would have 10 spots for candidates, but fewer would get elected.

 

Forgot, while a professional did NOT count in the limit, they DID count in the percentage.

This is still true.

 

I always find this discussion entertaining, watching people self-righteously pound their chests about how self-righteous other people are regarding knots.

[oldisnewagain1]

Years ago I had a conversation I had with a presenter at an Emergency Medical Services seminar.

 

He noted that volunteer EMTs had lots of patches on their uniforms, EMT stickers all over their personal vehicles, and demanded respect. On the other hand volunteer Paramedics had one patch on their uniforms, no identification of any sort on their personal vehicles and commanded respect.