Where Do Knots Come From, Daddy?

[davemetrano]

I am very thankful for the area I live in and the Scouters I deal with. I've been a Scouter for over 35 years

and I can't recall ever being looked down on because I was not wearing any knots (or bling). Maybe the

Scouters in this area are more concerned with running a great program for the youth we are charged with

than the knots worn by others.

[Stosh]

I am very thankful for the area I live in and the Scouters I deal with. I've been a Scouter for over 35 years

and I can't recall ever being looked down on because I was not wearing any knots (or bling). Maybe the

Scouters in this area are more concerned with running a great program for the youth we are charged with

than the knots worn by others.

 

There's an old saying, something about a book and it's cover, thingy.  I seldom pick a book because it has a good cover.    I sure wish we had more councils like @@davemetrano has.  

[Gone]

I try to remember that until they 'tip their hand' by words or deeds, everyone must be viewed as individuals. I simply choose not to wear all that stuff 1) because it's not important to me and 2) I don't want anyone to mistake me for one of 'the generals'. I've been excluded before...and now I really don't want to join that crowd.

 

We don't seem to agree on much but I can get behind this statement 100%. I never make a decision about someone because of how they look. The military taught me that. I assume all scouters are there to help and wait until deeds, words or actions prove otherwise. As I've noted, my experience shows a high correlation between the bling-set and egocentric behaviour.

 

As an adult in the program for many years, taking on different roles, I have different uniforms.  I have a bling encrusted uniform for special occasions and a very simple minimalist UC uniform when I visit other units or attend RT or doing something that isn't related to the unit I serve as SM.  I have a basic uniform with knots, no pins for the "everyday stuff".  

 

Not everyone can afford multiple uniforms.

 

I do believe it's important that some sort of uniform be worn if one is going to lead by example.

 

I think many can understand and support the multi-uniform approach. There's one you wear in the unit and one you wear for special occasions. Like BDUs and dress blues. You wear what you've been awarded, what you are allowed. My unit had a citation for something I was not even around for, but I got to wear it. 

 

Pride is one of them. I know I am very proud that I'm part of the then 2% that earned Eagle.

 

I think that's 6% now based off of 2013 stats (820k in Boy Scouts and 50k Eagles).

 

 

Man, I sure hope ppl don't think I'm a jerk...

As @"Q" alluded to, it is the man in the uniform not what is ON the uniform.

 

There's evidence of all types of scouters in our 900,000 ranks. There's folks who wear the bling and don't know a thing (that's patented). There's folks covered in gold that are helpful and old (that's for @@Stosh ). There are people without a thing who's knowledge is king. There are scouters without who can only shout.

 

Whether one wear the bling or chooses to not, one thing is clear, they're part of the lot.

 

[Apologies to my 12 grade English teacher and Dr. Seuss. ]

Edited May 15, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[blw2]

I personally find it a little weird that adults wear the uniform with all the bling. I just don't get wearing the uniform to round table, training etc, I just don't. Scouting is a youth program it always seems like adults are trying to relive something when they put on all the bling, beads etc.

 

In addition to having mostly bad experiences with those guys and gals it feels to me like they are trying to make the program about them, though I believe (or at least want to) that plenty of good guys and gals are wearing all the bling. 

I've thought about this several times.....

my theory us scouters that have interest enough to put energy into it... going to round tables, training, and even reading this forum...

we like the "game of scouting"

we are either continuing from playing the game as a youth

or we regret not playing as a youth and are enjoying it now.

For many or perhaps most, the primary motivator is our sons, which may extend to the other boys

but there almost has to be a piece of us that wants to play the game too.

 

Baden Powell wrote that an important trait of a Scoutmaster is being a man-boy (or was it boy-man?)

....anyway, being able to relate to the boy.

 

So what's wrong with that.

Some boys go for the bling and strive for the advancement

others don't, and just ride along with the patrol for the fun of it.

[Twocubdad]

Hey, E92-94 -- aren't professionals prohibited or strongly discouraged from wearing knots other than Eagle or the Darth Vader (professional development) knot?   Maybe that explains Green Bar Bill's uniform rather than it being his personal preference or a political statement.

 

I agree with both E-94 and Stosh's earlier posts on the subject.  Wear them if you want. 

 

I've got a great team of ASMs in my troop, many have been in the program with me since we ran the pack.  But the way they knot program is set up, ASM are generally eligible for only the Scouter Training Knot.  And because it requires suffering through four Roundtable meetings, no one in our troop earns it.  Consequently almost the only knot worn by my ASMs is Eagle, and maybe another one or two Cub knots.  (Personally, I think this is an omission in the program.  There needs to be an Assistant Scoutmaster Medal of Merit, or something similar, for these folks who toil away at the unit program for years.  With the enthusiastic encouragement of our CO, we've taken to presenting the Adult religious emblem for this.)

 

On the other hand we have a fellow in the district who wears something north of 22 knots.  (Rumor was he would stop at 21 because that is his troop number, but I know he's past that.)  Like any two people with strongly held beliefs and opinions, he and I have butted heads a time or two.  But he's a helluva Scouter and puts a ridiculous amount of time into the program.

 

As a result, my experience is there is little correlation between number of knots and the value/quality/experience of an individual Scouter.  Knots are kinda like Eagle -- the piece of cloth means they can complete a check list.  To learn more you have to look what's under the piece of cloth.

 

For the record, most of my older uniform shirts -- some going back to my days in the pack --  have all 12 of the knots I've earned.  For my two newer shirts I dropped the four Cub leader knots (which have been retired from the program anyway) and wear those which mean the most to me: Eagle, God and Country, Arrow of Light, James E. West (because it was given to me by the pack when I moved on to the troop), District Award of Merit (representing 5 years running day camp -- I damn-well earned that one), SM Award of Merit, and Silver Beaver.   Two rows plus one.

 

I do find there are a couple practical reasons for wearing the knots.  I've been out of the pack for 10 years now.  The kids who were Tiger Cubs when I was last Cub Master are now graduating high school.  So I no longer have a close relationship with the non-leader parents in the pack.  I've found many of them, especially parents I really don't know, take some amount of comfort from the visible acknowledgement of my experience.  I get as many questions about the knots from those parents as anyone else.  We here can argue that's a remarkably weak way of judging a troop's program, but if it makes the parents comfortable....  The second purpose is as a conversation starter with the boys. "What's that for?" is a great entre' into discussing the religious emblem program. Or that like the Scout, I also earned Arrow of Light. Or the benefits of hard work and goal setting.  Etc., etc., etc.

[DuctTape]

Nice B Wolf.

 

Here is my poetic entry, with apologies to R. Service.

 

There are strange things worn on a scouter uniform by the men who volunteer.

 

A Scouters knots, whether worn or not can sometimes cause a jeer.

 

The campfire flame seems to alight the blame, but the truth is there to see.

 

It is the Scouts own Law, which shows them all the Scouters real quality.

[Renax127]

I've thought about this several times.....

my theory us scouters that have interest enough to put energy into it... going to round tables, training, and even reading this forum...

we like the "game of scouting"

we are either continuing from playing the game as a youth

or we regret not playing as a youth and are enjoying it now.

For many or perhaps most, the primary motivator is our sons, which may extend to the other boys

but there almost has to be a piece of us that wants to play the game too.

 

Baden Powell wrote that an important trait of a Scoutmaster is being a man-boy (or was it boy-man?)

....anyway, being able to relate to the boy.

 

So what's wrong with that.

Some boys go for the bling and strive for the advancement

others don't, and just ride along with the patrol for the fun of it.

Because I see the "look at my uniform and how much stuff I have" guys as being a major reason we can't have a boy led troop. The set the tone for the district, area, whatever and they strive to make themselves the most important thing in scouting. Beading ceremony or adult award at a Roundtable fine doing anything like that at a court of honor or any other boycentric event means all the adults care about is making sure they are the focus of attention. Which doesn't mean they are bad people just that they aren't in scouting to train future leaders they are in it to get a pat on the back from other adults.

[Eagle94-A1]

Hey, E92-94 -- aren't professionals prohibited or strongly discouraged from wearing knots other than Eagle or the Darth Vader (professional development) knot?   Maybe that explains Green Bar Bill's uniform rather than it being his personal preference or a political statement...

 

... District Award of Merit (representing 5 years running day camp -- I damn-well earned that one)....

 I was told that at one time pros were prohibited or discouraged too. However that did change before I was a DE.  I wore 4: Eagle, AOL, Youth Religious, and Scouter Training Award. I knew one guy who had 2-3 rows, but he was a former volunteer who turned to the dark side when he retired from the military. He is now retired as a professional, and is the only volunteer with the Lord Vader knot. Yep, still volunteering.

 

Now I do know it's either prohibited ot strongly dscouraged, I honestly don't know which, but the District Committee Key is not one you get while as a DE. It may be because Pros are never considered "Trained" and authorized a trained strip.

 

I also was told that there is a 5 year period that a former pro must wait before getting the DAM and/or Silver Beaver. I know the former SE, who retired in the community and was still active as a volunteer, was nominated for the SB. When it was announced at a staff meeting he wasn't getting it, several DEs were extremely ticked off, with a few choice words being said. Then the SE let the cat out of the bag.

 

As for running day camp for 5 years and the DAM, they probably should have gotten you a fifth of single malt Scotch or a sainthood. 

[davemetrano]

*I must belong to a weird group of Scouters in my District and Council. At the begining of each Scouting year each Scouter is asked

if they are in favor of wearing the uniform at district roundtable meetings. It is totally optional. We normally have 60 to 75 Scouters at these rountables

each month. Over whelmingly the Scouters vote to wear the uniform. The reason is very simple, if we expect the Scout to wear their uniform

at a troop meeting or function why shouldn't the Scouter?

 

Shout at me if I'm wrong;but, we at the Great Eastern District of the Yankee Clipper Council are proud to set the example for out Scouts. We never asked our

Scouts to do anythjing we won't do.

[JoeBob]

If y'all have 60 to 75 Adults at Roundtable, good for you!

 

So how are you setting an example for the boys, if they are not there?

[Stosh]

If y'all have 60 to 75 Adults at Roundtable, good for you!

 

So how are you setting an example for the boys, if they are not there?

 

Character is what a person does when no one is watching.   The attitude of the adult is not dependent on the witness of others.  Sometimes one does things just because it's the right thing to do.  

[Rick_in_CA]

Because I see the "look at my uniform and how much stuff I have" guys as being a major reason we can't have a boy led troop. The set the tone for the district, area, whatever and they strive to make themselves the most important thing in scouting. Beading ceremony or adult award at a Roundtable fine doing anything like that at a court of honor or any other boycentric event means all the adults care about is making sure they are the focus of attention. Which doesn't mean they are bad people just that they aren't in scouting to train future leaders they are in it to get a pat on the back from other adults.

So you are saying any recognition of an adult in front of the boys proves that those adults don't care about the boys? Really? Painting with a wide brush aren't we?

[Gone]

So you are saying any recognition of an adult in front of the boys proves that those adults don't care about the boys? Really? Painting with a wide brush aren't we?

Not how I read his post. Means that in addition to caring about the boys they like bit of ego-stroking too -- to which he thought the focus should be on the boys at their COH. Save the adult recognition for adult events like RT.

 

Pretty clear what he meant.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[Eagle94-A1]

In regards to recognition for adults at COHs, there's a time and a place IMHO. If it's something the troop is giving to an adult. no problem. If it's WB beads, training knots, etc. not so much.  If the troop gave an outgoing SM or other leader a West Fellowship, I'm cool

[davemetrano]

We, as adult Scouters at least in my District, try to set an example to our Scouts.  That is why we wear our uniforms at our district roundtable

meetings. We ask and require our scouts to proudly wear their uniforms at scout meetings and activities. Why shouldn't we? The wearing of the uniform

by Scouters at these meetings is totally optional. Nobody is going to look down or criticise any member if they choose not to wear the uniform. Many times

I've come to a meeting right from work in civies, the normal greeting is "Glad you could make it Dave."   I think we might have the attitude 'why should we

have the scouts do something we wouldn't'. If were wrong, so be it.

 

I guess I go back to my military command training, as a platoon leader, I would never order a man to take point if I wouldn't do it.