Scout Led/run Vs: Scouters Teaching

[mgood777]

Don't be intimidated. You likely know more than most. Pass that on through the patrol method and boy-led process.

 

What intimidates me is being The Man In Charge, and making the commitment to being there all the time. As a commissioner, I can pass on a little information here and there, but I'm not expected to be at every meeting and campout. I would LOVE to be a Scoutmaster, have a youth-run troop without some SM above me stepping on that process. But I would hate to take on that responsibility and then 4 months later get so busy with work that I had to step down or delegate most of my responsibilities to ASMs.

[Gone]

What intimidates me is being The Man In Charge, and making the commitment to being there all the time. As a commissioner, I can pass on a little information here and there, but I'm not expected to be at every meeting and campout. I would LOVE to be a Scoutmaster, have a youth-run troop without some SM above me stepping on that process. But I would hate to take on that responsibility and then 4 months later get so busy with work that I had to step down or delegate most of my responsibilities to ASMs.

 

If you have ASMs, a little bit of planning and you can have it covered. Our SM has ASMs commit weeks in advance as to who can cover what. The PLC does their end, we just shepherd. 

[Sentinel947]

As an ASM, please delegate stuff to us. Nobody likes attending meetings and giving up their weekends to do absolutely nothing. COnsidering your experience in Scouting and the outdoors, pass off the paperwork and record keeping to your ASM's and committee and spend time working with the Scouts. Use the skills of your ASM's to benefit the unit. In my unit, I'm the most experienced Scouter, so when it comes to helping the PLC plan their program, and coaching the PL's, the Scoutmaster has delegated that to me. In your Troop that may be different. 

[Eagledad]

Then perhaps those who teach Wood Badge/IOLs/ Scoutmaster Fundamentals need to build the patrol method into the course, make room for it, even if it's not "officially" part of the syllabus.

 

That's exactly why the old WB was closed. Participants will get plenty patrol method modeling in the courses, but that's not patrol method is really about. It's easy to teach the mechanics and structure of Patrol a Method, but understanding the results is very different of a gang of boys stuck together is not something that can be seen in a few hours by adults pretending to be scouts. if you as a new adult who had never seen a Boy Scout patrol had just spent two days being in a patrol with a PL, APL, and all the other patrol positions, what are you going to do when you get back to your troop?

 

I learned in a class in college that group must work together about 35 hours before group dynamics "starts" take effect. That is barely a camp out for the average troop. From the stories I've heard, likely the only course where adult participants experienced some patrol method was the old WB course at Philmont because they were stuck together for seven days. Most troops don't realize that summer camp is the most intense patrol method for their scouts. Ever notice how the worst of everyone comes out about Wednesday of camp?

 

That is why adults who experienced scouting as a youth have a leg up. They know the routine of boys living together. It's noy just about the PL holding control and everybody working together in ideal conditions (WB, IOLs, SM Fundamentals). Patrol method is finding your character when your not in the mood. You kind of have to be there to get it.

 

I don't know the answer of how to prepare clueless adults with minimum skills to manage 50 boys in the woods with the objective of developing them into moral decision makers. What skills do they really need to know, knots or servant leadership? They can build patrols, but are they doing patrol method? It is said, and I agree, that a SM needs about three years to be a productive scout leader. How long does it take the rest of the adults?

 

I've staffed just about all adult traing classes since the early 90s and none of them really prepare adults for patrol method because it has to be seen in action.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

Sentinel947, on 13 May 2015 - 08:10 AM, said: "Then perhaps those who teach Wood Badge/IOLs/ Scoutmaster Fundamentals need to build the patrol method into the course, make room for it, even if it's not "officially" part of the syllabus."

 

Eagledad,  on 13 May 2015 - 2:26PM, said: "That's exactly why the old WB was closed."

 

Eagledad, what do you mean by "that" and which "old" WB do you mean?  There have been three major versions.  Only the third is almost always a weekend course.

 

I sure agree that understanding the Patrol Method in any meaningful way requires seeing it in action, but getting to that is aided by knowing what it is supposed to consist of, yes?  We have to start somewhere with adults who lack exposure.

[Eagle94-A1]

I know my troop growing up wanted all new adult leaders, except the 18-20 year olds, to be on the troop committee for at least a year  before becoming an ASM. Part of it was so that they could get the training. But a part of it was  getting them accustomed to the Patrol Method and troop culture. We had issues with new ASMs right out of Cub Scouts, so the troop went that route.

 

Maybe it was a good thing since it gave the adults a chance to see the Patrol Method in action?

 

Forgot to add, I second summer camp as THE #1 bonding event for a new scout. There is something about a week of camp that forces the bonding.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Eagle94-A1

[Eagledad]

TAHAWK, between IOLs and WB, adults get enough exposure to patrol method to understand the intended structure.

 

The problem with the WB Course previous to the 2000 course was that it was not intended to teach adults the process of patrol method. The patrol structure was only used as the basis for the adults to observe teaching techniques. The course was was intended for experienced adults who already understood how patrol method worked toward boy growth.

 

The previous course was an advanced course designed for experienced scouters ready for advanced skills. But by the the late 1990s, most of the participants (as well as much of the staff) were not ready for the advanced skills being presented. They misunderstood and confused the lesson objectives. When adults don't understand the bigger picture of why the method works, they tend to copy and force it in there own troop exactly as they experienced it. That is what caused the failure of the course.

 

As I was saying, the challenge for National is how to indoctrinate new adult leaders into a program that 3/4 of them have never experienced. The BSA program is being shaped by those adults.

 

Barry

[Oldscout448]

Just wanted to thank all you guys who took the time to respond.  I read and in some cases reread every one of your posts.  for the record; yep I'm an ASM, the scouts ( not a patrol) were given the task by the SM. the other scouter at the fire was some district level bigwig,  ( I forgot to say we were at a camporee)  

 I am thinking of offering a class or two in advanced wood cutting skills to the older scouts/scouters.  You know felling, limbing, bucking, splitting etc

  Hey, how about log cabin building? 

[TAHAWK]

If it were true that the Patrol Method were generally understood:

.

1. Scouters having just completed Scoutmaster-Specific Training would not consistently ask the staff to tell them what the patrol method is supposed to be.  I have personally experienced this at courses in three councils in NE Ohio and other staffers have related the same experience as a routine occurrence.  No reason why they should understand becasue neither the 2001-2014 nor the current the syllabus calls for the defining information to be presented.

 

2. Scouting would not publish an article portraying the Patrol Method as an option to be allowed only when it results in a troop that operates as a well-oiled machine or as a range of empowering Scouts from 0% to something more than that.

 

3. BSA literature would consistently stress not troop, troop, troop, but patrol, patrol, patrol.  Instead, patrol activities "may" take place.  Ever notice that there are forms for troop activities but the only guidance on patrol meetings is that they should be devoted to planning and administration.  Where is the Patrol Campout Planning form?

 

4. BSA would not instruct Scouters and leaders (Scouts) that troop activities are always the priority over patrol activities.

 

BSA stresses EDGE and does not bother with the "Explain" step.

 

As for comments on the 1972-2000 version, were you on staff?  I took the course and staffed it x 3.  Learners were there by invitation.  I missed the failure part.  What I heard and saw were Scouters so excited about learning Scoutcraft and leadership skills that they were typically sorry the course was over.

[qwazse]

Sorry to not get back to this earlier ... I had my nose to far into the I&P thread and missed these awesome (as usual) questions ...

...

Why does the person teaching in the so-called EDGE method have to leave the boys with inferior skills?  How does explaining why a skill is worth knowing, teaching that skill, allowing an application phase, and then stepping away when the Scouts have sufficient mastery = "leave the boys with inferior skills"?[/size]

 

And just who defines "the desired result"?  If you are volunteering, please give us a sample definition.  For Bill, it was First Class-level Skills, and he built Wood Badge to that standard.  I have the syllabus.[/size]

 

I think adults ought to be trained -- or at least offered training - to a higher level so they can indulge Scouts who want to go beyond First Class skills.  What do you think?[/size]

The simple answer is: (unless I've underestimated your omnipresence) you won't always be there. Two years from now when this boy is out on his own with his buddies and their girlfriends and his muscle memory about axe grinding fails him, will @@Oldscout448, or you or I be around for him to get a quick refresher -- even if he does manage to find cell service up the hill from whatever idyllic vally they set up camp in? It's vital that each boy knows there's a reference he can turn to ... a book that he can keep at hand, maybe. Or a pamphlet that might go into specific detail. So, when we're not around, each can rehearse the skill with some surety that they are working from a common source.

 

By having a boy grab his handbook, and look up the pertinent section, an SM may also learn that their are gaps and inadequacies in one reference relative to the skill level the boys are shooting for, and can make sure they have something written at the level they are trying to achieve.

[qwazse]

...

  Hey, how about log cabin building? 

Didn't the pioneering MB pamphlet have some instructions on building a log cabin?