Eagle94-A1 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 To paraphrase Yoda, knots and beads matter not. If the Scouts don't know how to use something, and there is no one else to teach them, then obviously you gotta do what you gotta do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 To paraphrase Yoda, knots and beads matter not. If the Scouts don't know how to use something, and there is no one else to teach them, then obviously you gotta do what you gotta do. I think it's a matter of what's reasonable, not necessary essential. The current Handbook has a pathetic choice of one fire lay, but there are other books. "Fire lay" gets 53,000 hits on Google. But it might make sense to teach a few Scouts now so the program can go on and to have them promise to teach what they have learned to the others. Bill, for all the emphasis on Boys figuring things out themselves, taught tons of Scoutcraft as National Director of Scoutcraft , and not just to adults. As Green Bar Bill he taught them every month trough Boy's Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Where all the scouts woods tools trained? If they were, I might have let them go and showed up a little later to offer my services for the fire. I do think we have ranted about boy run to the point that adults are afraid to do anything, which causes more problems when the program stalls. What's important is for adults to evaluate there actions and measure the results, just like we suggest to the scouts. In my opinion the adults do it wrong more than the scouts. But if they change to try to do it better the next time, the program moves forward and matures. Barry Edited May 10, 2015 by Eagledad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Where all the scouts woods tools trained? If they were, I might have let them go and showed up a little later to offer my services for the fire. I do think we have ranted about boy run to the point that adults are afraid to do anything, which causes more problems when the program stalls. What's important is for adults to evaluate there actions and measure the results, just like we suggest to the scouts. In my opinion the adults do it wrong more than the scouts. But if they change to try to do it better the next time, the program moves forward and matures. Barry Training on woods tools in the Handbook is minimal and includes errors. Afraid? In the real world, a small minority of troops - Boy Scout Troops -- use the Patrol method, inclusive of boy leadership. So the typical Scouter has no reluctance to play PL/SPL.-- to do everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Assuming that the crumudgeon wasn't your SM, I would ay you are on level footing, @@Oldscout448. You applied the EDGE method flawlessly. Which means you left the boys with inferior skills that will not enable them to reproduce the desired result. If only you had a reference that the boys could call upon in those times when your presence is not available and institutional memory fails ... As far as violating the patrol boundaries are concerned, that ship sailed when they came to you asking for your axe. You take my girls out for a spin, you're asking me for one eye on you until they're brought home on time and as pretty as when they left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Woods tool training teaches how to work a tool safely. Experience teaches how to work a tool productively. Stosh C-9W-93 "Wood Badge typically means the advice giver thinks they're always right. In my experiences most WBers are too full of themselves." @ You have now gone from Bad Wolf to Big Bad Wolf.... Edited May 11, 2015 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 "You applied the EDGE method flawlessly. Which means you left the boys with inferior skills that will not enable them to reproduce the desired result." Why does the person teaching in the so-called EDGE method have to leave the boys with inferior skills? How does explaining why a skill is worth knowing, teaching that skill, allowing an application phase, and then stepping away when the Scouts have sufficient mastery = "leave the boys with inferior skills"? And just who defines "the desired result"? If you are volunteering, please give us a sample definition. For Bill, it was First Class-level Skills, and he built Wood Badge to that standard. I have the syllabus. I think adults ought to be trained -- or at least offered training - to a higher level so they can indulge Scouts who want to go beyond First Class skills. What do you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 "You applied the EDGE method flawlessly. Which means you left the boys with inferior skills that will not enable them to reproduce the desired result." Why does the person teaching in the so-called EDGE method have to leave the boys with inferior skills? How does explaining why a skill is worth knowing, teaching that skill, allowing an application phase, and then stepping away when the Scouts have sufficient mastery = "leave the boys with inferior skills"? And just who defines "the desired result"? If you are volunteering, please give us a sample definition. For Bill, it was First Class-level Skills, and he built Wood Badge to that standard. I have the syllabus. I think adults ought to be trained -- or at least offered training - to a higher level so they can indulge Scouts who want to go beyond First Class skills. What do you think? There's always the "next level" for the boys, or they will become bored with the kindergarten curriculum (T-FC) and drop out when they turn 16. (or so they say)... An axe is to be sharpened to file sharpness because the weight of the head is meant to do the job. However to hone it beyond that to knife blade sharpness takes the tool to another level. Oldscout448 said, "My axes are just short of razor sharp." To me he is at that next level for the boys. I know what he means when he says that, but how many SM's out there even allow such a tool to be around the boys? Ever whittle with a hand axe? That is a skill I teach my older boys. If one is going to keep these boys interested in scouting until they are 18, one had better understand Woodscraft beyond the 101 level and have a pretty good idea what a PhD in Woodscraft is all about. Knots are another area, campfire cooking, Dutch Ovens, etc. are all things that SM's aren't taught, but unless the adults research and are proficient in these areas, what good are they for supporting the development of the boys as they get older? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hey, that gives me an idea.... they should make a training opportunity adults go out in the woods, under the tutelage of a true expert woodsman, and camp for maybe a weekend or two without the boys around, learning and truly practicing woodscraft skills, knots, shelter building, etc.... all with no saddle of leadership theory, classroom work, or any political non-sense.... all hands on, just becoming more proficient in the skills.... .... they could call it wood-beads maybe...??? I would sign up for such a course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hey, that gives me an idea.... they should make a training opportunity adults go out in the woods, under the tutelage of a true expert woodsman, and camp for maybe a weekend or two without the boys around, learning and truly practicing woodscraft skills, knots, shelter building, etc.... all with no saddle of leadership theory, classroom work, or any political non-sense.... all hands on, just becoming more proficient in the skills.... .... they could call it wood-beads maybe...??? I would sign up for such a course! In theory this would be really good, but it'll never fly. Unless a person had an extensive background in scouting as a kid, camping today means 5th wheeler in an RV park with store, pool and game room. The Mrs. and I were at a state park last fall and found that all the campsites with electricity were taken. Of the rest of the sites, none had water hook ups and none had sewer hookups and none had campers...... No bugs, exquisite fall foliage, and we had the place all to ourselves. It was just after Labor Day so the "camping season" was over and done with. Into that culture how are we to re-introduce the concepts of campfire cooking, tenting, and taking a simple walk in the woods to find what we could find? Canoe camp? What's that. We have sandbar camping here where the houseboats tie up on a solitary piece of beach and that's really roughing it around here. My canoe is rated for 750# capacity. That's a lot of gear. I can even plop camp on a sandbar in the river. Now try that with a kayak. It's like backpacking for canoeists. Mrs. and I do it all the time. So, why is it always the Mrs. and I doing these things? Kids today have zero interest in such things. Unless it is plugged in, it isn't any fun. Where do they get that from? Yep, their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Stosh C-9W-93 "Wood Badge typically means the advice giver thinks they're always right. In my experiences most WBers are too full of themselves." @ You have now gone from Bad Wolf to Big Bad Wolf.... @@Stosh, I should revise and extend my remarks; comments apply to most WBers who took WB since the format change. Long ago I believe WB was worthwhile. My opinion is, since the change, most of WB is like JTE. Though in my experience most people with knots or beads on their uniform are always quick to point out how right they are. Present company excluded. Edited May 11, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hey, that gives me an idea.... they should make a training opportunity adults go out in the woods, under the tutelage of a true expert woodsman, and camp for maybe a weekend or two without the boys around, learning and truly practicing woodscraft skills, knots, shelter building, etc.... all with no saddle of leadership theory, classroom work, or any political non-sense.... all hands on, just becoming more proficient in the skills.... This should be done for IOLS. If not, what else is IOLS for? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 This has been hashed over and over I know, but I'm still struggling with the last campout campfire. I know that's criptic so allow me to give a thumbnail sketch. About 5 scouts were given the task of building the Saturday night campfire, none of them had a saw or an ax so I lent them mine. My axes are just short of razor sharp,so I followed the scouts to the campfire circle. Firstly to see that no scout got hurt, secondly to see that my ax wasn't going to hit a nice hard rock. It was quickly clear that none of the scouts had ever built a large fire before. I sat on my log and tried to stay out of it. After watching them pile the wood up, and have it fall apart, twice, I asked if I could make a suggestion. they said "uhh sure" "Notch the logs." "How?" "Can I show you?" "OK" So I notched one log and showed then how it would now cradle the log above it. Then I sat back down. They did the rest. It wasn't exactly neat or pretty but it held. They seemed pretty happy with their work. They gave me my tools back and headed back. to their tents. Then the other Scouter there took me to task for " Not letting the scouts learn by failing" he seemed to think that we are not to teach anything, just sit and watch and drink coffee. That I was not allowed to pass on anything I have learned in four decades of hiking and camping unless asked by the scouts first. Now he's a WBer, with a lot more knots than me, but that just doesn't make much sense. Look, I dont want to be a PL again. Or an ASPL, SPL, JASM, QM,or bugler I did all those in my day, now its these scouts turn to learn to lead and teach. But they can not teach what they don;t know, any more than they can ask to be taught what they don't know exists. Am I off base here? This has been hashed over and over I know, but I'm still struggling with the last campout campfire. I know that's criptic so allow me to give a thumbnail sketch. About 5 scouts were given the task of building the Saturday night campfire, none of them had a saw or an ax so I lent them mine. My axes are just short of razor sharp,so I followed the scouts to the campfire circle. Firstly to see that no scout got hurt, secondly to see that my ax wasn't going to hit a nice hard rock. It was quickly clear that none of the scouts had ever built a large fire before. I sat on my log and tried to stay out of it. After watching them pile the wood up, and have it fall apart, twice, I asked if I could make a suggestion. they said "uhh sure" "Notch the logs." "How?" "Can I show you?" "OK" So I notched one log and showed then how it would now cradle the log above it. Then I sat back down. They did the rest. It wasn't exactly neat or pretty but it held. They seemed pretty happy with their work. They gave me my tools back and headed back. to their tents. Then the other Scouter there took me to task for " Not letting the scouts learn by failing" he seemed to think that we are not to teach anything, just sit and watch and drink coffee. That I was not allowed to pass on anything I have learned in four decades of hiking and camping unless asked by the scouts first. Now he's a WBer, with a lot more knots than me, but that just doesn't make much sense. Look, I dont want to be a PL again. Or an ASPL, SPL, JASM, QM,or bugler I did all those in my day, now its these scouts turn to learn to lead and teach. But they can not teach what they don;t know, any more than they can ask to be taught what they don't know exists. Am I off base here? The ideal is that the older boys would know and teach the younger boys. If the skill-set isn't in the boys, then the adults need to step in, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I think Wood Badge as a concept is fine as is. It just needs to be more clearly marketed. At it's core, the new Wood Badge is supposed to teach adults about Scouting, and how to work with kids. I think IOL's fits the need of teaching camping skills. The issue is double pronged, we have alot of parents who volunteer to be Scout leaders who don't understand the program, what they should do, and why. They also lack the outdoor skills to be effective in the backcountry with kids. As a result, we get plop and drop camping troops that are adult led. I hope this isn't news to any of the regulars on the forums, just explaining my thinking here. TL;DR WB21C and IOL's are trying to meet different and important needs. How successful they are, is a different discussion entirely. I'll give my thoughts on WB21C. I'm going this fall. I've been in Scouting 15 years now, after being a member on this forum, I doubt there's much I'll be taught there that I don't already know. We'll see. Sentinel947 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 This should be done for IOLS. If not, what else is IOLS for? IOLS, IMHO, is for teaching new leaders how to tie the basic knots, use a compass, and heat (not cook) food in dutch ovens, using matchlite in a chimney starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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