How Do We Make Uniforming A Viable Method?

[blw2]

""Look at the photos that Cambridgeskip posted. You see that the neckerchiefs are worn loosely, and they are secured by either a woggle, what looks like a band tie of some kind, or just a knot. Much more practical.   ""

 

Friendship Knot  , very widely used in Europe:        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_knot    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lpSWxSTuVY

 

I think it's a great solution....add a little bit of an "old world" look to the uniform...

I've been meaning to try this, but when i think about it or need it.... such as a lost woggle..... I can never remember how...

BUT I think that the standard cub neckers are too short to do it anyway.

 

Personally, I think the lazy approach to the uniform of making it optional is a BIG mistake.

and as I told our council's Field Service Director recently, I think these blasted T-shirts are a real downfall and really serve to hurt scouting and hurt enrolment, etc.... Kind of an unintended consequence as I see it....

 

There is no scout identity with them.  We look like a bunch of church youth groups or school bands on a field trip.

and no way to display ranks and such.... which i think is a big factor in why I have never really seen our boys take interest in a friend's patch, or a drive to get the patch that their buddy has, etc.... they receive the new rank, award, or patch, look at it for 3-5 seconds...then shrug their shoulders and look for mom or dad to give it to for holding.  That's the end of that.

 

and I do like desertrat77's suggestion that National should ask the boys..... not ask if it should be optional or if it should be done away with, but ask them to design it, clean slate.  Encourage a uniform, and encourage certain needs, but really let them have a say in what those needs are and what the design is....

 

My guess is that it would start with something that is designed to be worn un-tucked..... which would be OK by me!

[Eagledad]

Hmm, a bunch of whining, but no real answers to LeCaster question about the present uniform. 

 

The difficulty of the uniform is the ages of the scouts in the program. New scouts are at the age they want to look like the older scouts, so the uniform is easy. the 13 and 14 year old scouts are going through a change where they are questioning their identity and no uniform is acceptable. The 15 and older scouts have little trouble with the uniform because they know the uniform is part of the program. So no  matter what uniforms are selected, not all scouts will welcome them.

 

So what then? First off I find the adults are as much of the problem as the scouts. The responses on this thread show how willing adults are willing to undermine the method as the scouts. That makes it more of an uphill battle using the method. to START, how the adults feel about the uniform shouldn't be important, how the role model making right decisions is the "Most" important. If the adult decided to protest the uniform by not wearing it correctly, the scouts will follow. And sadly the scouts will  learn a lot of lessons from that example. No matter what the scout choose to do for themselves personally, the adults have to set the highest example. Scouts should always see the model for which they should aspire, not down to the lower. The adults are the primary method for setting the "Best" example.

 

Also, adults should have a basic understanding of why the uniform is important in the scouting program. When a scout say the uniform is stupid, the adult needs to be ready for explaining how the uniform identifies each boy in the patrol as an equal partner to the team. From the outside, no boy is richer or poorer, smarter, or set apart from the group. For better or worse, the scout is an equal partner.

 

"But I don't want to look like everyone else". The uniform give each scout their own personal identity that sets them apart from the group through rank, special awards, order of the arrow, and even outside troop activities like high adventure. The individuality the uniform provides allows the scout to be honored for his personal accomplishments within the scouting program and in the community. Any person with an understanding of scout only has to look at a scout uniform to know his experience and accomplishments.

 

Of course there are many many more answers to guiding scouts on the uniform, these are just a few examples of helping guide a scout in a way of thinking for the value of the uniform. Of course as I said, some adults have to get past their own hang ups. 

 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

Good question. I think one of the reasons for the dislike of the neckerchief is that it is treated like a dress tie. It's supposed to be neatly rolled and tucked under the collar. 

 

Look at the photos that Cambridgeskip posted. You see that the neckerchiefs are worn loosely, and they are secured by either a woggle, what looks like a band tie of some kind, or just a knot. Much more practical.

Yep. Although in alot of the old scouting literature that I've seen, the neckerchief was predominately worn OVER the collar. Not sure when that changed to under the collar. 

[perdidochas]

Hmm, a bunch of whining, but no real answers to LeCaster question about the present uniform. 

 

The difficulty of the uniform is the ages of the scouts in the program. New scouts are at the age they want to look like the older scouts, so the uniform is easy. the 13 and 14 year old scouts are going through a change where they are questioning their identity and no uniform is acceptable. The 15 and older scouts have little trouble with the uniform because they know the uniform is part of the program. So no  matter what uniforms are selected, not all scouts will welcome them.

 

So what then? First off I find the adults are as much of the problem as the scouts. The responses on this thread show how willing adults are willing to undermine the method as the scouts. That makes it more of an uphill battle using the method. to START, how the adults feel about the uniform shouldn't be important, how the role model making right decisions is the "Most" important. If the adult decided to protest the uniform by not wearing it correctly, the scouts will follow. And sadly the scouts will  learn a lot of lessons from that example. No matter what the scout choose to do for themselves personally, the adults have to set the highest example. Scouts should always see the model for which they should aspire, not down to the lower. The adults are the primary method for setting the "Best" example.

 

Also, adults should have a basic understanding of why the uniform is important in the scouting program. When a scout say the uniform is stupid, the adult needs to be ready for explaining how the uniform identifies each boy in the patrol as an equal partner to the team. From the outside, no boy is richer or poorer, smarter, or set apart from the group. For better or worse, the scout is an equal partner.

 

"But I don't want to look like everyone else". The uniform give each scout their own personal identity that sets them apart from the group through rank, special awards, order of the arrow, and even outside troop activities like high adventure. The individuality the uniform provides allows the scout to be honored for his personal accomplishments within the scouting program and in the community. Any person with an understanding of scout only has to look at a scout uniform to know his experience and accomplishments.

 

Of course there are many many more answers to guiding scouts on the uniform, these are just a few examples of helping guide a scout in a way of thinking for the value of the uniform. Of course as I said, some adults have to get past their own hang ups. 

 

Barry

 

Exactly. The big problem with not wanting to wear the uniform is the "middle-aged" scouts--the 12-14 year olds. 

 

I also agree, that the adults are the key.  If the adults in a unit aren't wearing uniforms, or wearing incorrect uniforms, the scouts are going to want to do the same. 

 

All that said, I also think the sticklers about uniforms being pressed, etc., don't help the uniform argument much.  About 6 months ago, I went to an ECOH for my nephew. Hte belongs in a "uniform for special occasions" troop.  All of their uniforms did look very nice.  My oldest and I went to this in our uniforms, which we wear every week and on campouts.  Our uniforms look lived-in, because we do live in them. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by perdidochas

[walk in the woods]

 

The difficulty of the uniform is the ages of the scouts in the program. New scouts are at the age they want to look like the older scouts, so the uniform is easy. the 13 and 14 year old scouts are going through a change where they are questioning their identity and no uniform is acceptable. The 15 and older scouts have little trouble with the uniform because they know the uniform is part of the program. So no  matter what uniforms are selected, not all scouts will welcome them.

Eagledad,

 

I'm going to challenge your statement just a little.  I find that 13-14 year olds are more than happy to wear uniforms, basketball, baseball, football, soccer, FFA jackets, even drama club or band t-shirts.  That goes for 13 - 14 and older for that matter.  So, there's something about our uniforms that is different.  I'd argue that ultimately it's a matter of where people put value, and people in this case is not adult leaders but rather the parents and the community in general.  We've probably all seen parents drop $100 for a baseball uniform for one season and not want to purchase a BSA uniform.  I never enjoyed wearing my uniform in public as a youth, nobody I knew cared for it.  So I don't think this is a new issue. 

 

I'd argue for a good activity uniform (high-tec, small logo t-shirt that kids can wear for more than one purpose), maybe a necker large enough to be useful, and a reasonably priced pair of pants.  You can get a pair of cargo pants and a UA t-shirt at basspro for $50 and the kids might wear them for stuff other than scouting before they grow out of them.

[Eagledad]

Eagledad,

 

I'm going to challenge your statement just a little.  I find that 13-14 year olds are more than happy to wear uniforms, basketball, baseball, football, soccer, FFA jackets, even drama club or band t-shirts.  That goes for 13 - 14 and older for that matter.  So, there's something about our uniforms that is different.  I'd argue that ultimately it's a matter of where people put value, and people in this case is not adult leaders but rather the parents and the community in general.  We've probably all seen parents drop $100 for a baseball uniform for one season and not want to purchase a BSA uniform.  I never enjoyed wearing my uniform in public as a youth, nobody I knew cared for it.  So I don't think this is a new issue. 

 

We can agree to disagree here, I was also a coach of the same age group and many of the boys had trouble wearing their uniform correctly for the exact same reasons I mentioned above. So I will have to disagree.

 

But you still have the same situation. While we can discuss and try to understand the psychy of why boys do what they do, we still have the method to use in building men of character. 

 

I'd argue for a good activity uniform (high-tec, small logo t-shirt that kids can wear for more than one purpose), maybe a necker large enough to be useful, and a reasonably priced pair of pants.  You can get a pair of cargo pants and a UA t-shirt at basspro for $50 and the kids might wear them for stuff other than scouting before they grow out of them.

 

These are all reasonable discussions I have had with my own PLC. BUT, I always started the discussion with someone reading what the Scout Handbook says and a quick discussion of making right choices. The problem many have when I say this that they feel the restrictions are rigid with no compromise. So let me relay this one story of what my PLC did. After a few such discussions of not liking the pants (They were really bad in the mid 90s). So they proposed to me to use a green BDU they could get at the surplus store. Here are their reasons they asked me to present to the Council.: 1. they have several cargo pocket that made them more usable (pants didn't have them back then), they are adjustable to six sizes, so scouts didn't have to buy pants every year as they grew. They were cheap ($19), and from a distance could not be distinguished from the BSA pants (cargo pockets up close). I told them not to get their hope up, but I was proud of them for being creative. Well low and behold Council said yes and you know the rest of the story.

 

This is a lesson for both the adults and boys. Adults need to stand back and allow scouts to work these things out without giving up in the Aims, Methods and Virtues of the Oath and Law.

 

All this being siad, I am a big boy run person and from the perspective, I have never seen a fully uniformed truly boy run troop. Boy run troops give the scouts the freedom to make their own choices and we humans don't always make good choices. My troop is no acception. It is rare to see all the scout of one mind. But making wrong choices are why adults are needed in the program.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Yep. Although in alot of the old scouting literature that I've seen, the neckerchief was predominately worn OVER the collar. Not sure when that changed to under the collar. 

 

When I was in scouts in the early 1960's the necker was rolled, the collar tucked in.  Eventually they began to make collarless shirts for just that reason.  When ODL came on the scene I think the collar came back but the necker was tucked under.

 

I really don't like the necker tucked under and the wad of collar tucked under is uncomfortable.  The shirt is not made to have the collar on the inside.  Duh!  So we wear the square necker with a lanyard woggle over the collar.  Works really nice and looks nice and there are no woggles/slides to lose.

 

Look at the diagram for the Diamond knot. take a piece of parachute cord.  Tie a Diamond Knot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_knot and along with the two loose ends, slide the necker ends through as well.  Tighten at a point where necker and lanyard can be slipped off the head.  Once tightened, it looks like there is a woggle on, but it won't slide down the necker.  If the necker is needed for any reason, it can be removed and the ends pulled back through the knot.  Tie once and forget it, never lose a slide/woggle ever again.

 

As far as the uniform is concerned, it is one of the youth defined rules of the troop.  If one is going to BE a scout they might as well look the part so people don't have to keep asking.

 

I have boys that put their uniform shirts on after getting to the meeting and take them off as soon as flags are over.  But during the activity they are expected to be in full uniform.  This past weekend we were at camporee.  The PL was going to ride in my vehicle to the event and his best friend didn't have his uniform on.  When it was time to go I went over to my vehicle and said, "Scouts mount up!".  The boy sans uniform came over and I asked him if he was a scout.  He looked at me kinda funny like and the PL turned to him and said, "You had better find your uniform if you are going to ride in this car."  Even being best friends doesn't trump troop rules.  The PL did help him get his pack out and find his uniform.

 

We do back off at summer camp in that it can be beastly hot at that time.  While in camp the boys can shed the uniform.  However at meal time, we "dress for dinner".  If you're not hungry, you can forego the uniform.  However, other than the waterfront and camp, the boys are in full uniform.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Stosh

[baggss]

how about something like the campco safari vest as an option, useful long after they age out

[Stosh]

Why not just go with Boy and Girls club, 4-H, or church youth group, or YMCA program with a camping emphasis?  Then the kids can wear whatever they want.

[RememberSchiff]

Why not just go with Boy and Girls club, 4-H, or church youth group, or YMCA program with a camping emphasis?  Then the kids can wear whatever they want.

 

Might be a reason their youth memberships are learger than BSA and continue to grow.

 

Another thought, what boy wants to dress like a middle-age man (need I post photos)? Maybe adults just wear regular clothes and some leader campaign hat (like old Lem there) or ball cap and then PLC determines unit uniform for scouts (well except make full necker required).

 

Another $0.02

Edited May 7, 2015 by RememberSchiff

[Stosh]

@@RememberSchiff

 

"Might be a reason their youth memberships are learger than BSA and continue to grow."  You might be right, and the course we see our youth taking in today's world, might be our Brave New World.

 

Yeah, I was in Little League as a kid, and Scouts, and my church youth group.  I went to the local teen hangout as well. 

 

But today, I still camp and go to church.  Haven't swung a bat for years and the local teen hangout isn't very interesting anymore.  I hang out with family and friends more often.

 

My wife likes to camp and kayak too.  She was never in Boy Scouts, but did do a year as a Daisy GS.  I guess the years of family camping and her career choice of Forestry and working for the US Forest Service might be one of the reasons she's a Master Gardener.  So, no, the BSA programs are not the only ones that will lead one to a life of living in the woods. But BSA is also a leadership development program, which the 4-H does a good job of as well.  4-H suffers because the image of 4-H in an urban setting is the same dynamic of camping in an urban setting for the BSA. 

[Eagledad]

Might be a reason their youth memberships are learger than BSA and continue to grow.

 

Another thought, what boy wants to dress like a middle-age man (need I post photos)? Maybe adults just wear regular clothes and some leader campaign hat (like old Lem there) or ball cap and then PLC determines unit uniform for scouts (well except make full necker required).

 

Another $0.02

This reminds me of the current Girl Scout uniforms of a vest with patches. That has been the basic uniform for over 25 years, yet all the movies that use the Girls Scout image still show them in the previous green skirts style uniforms because nobody would recognize the organization in the present uniforms. One that comes to mind is the movie Dodge Ball. 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

While the different vests are popular there is also a tunic or sash option as well.  Yet what most people don't point out is the white shirt and khaki pants/shorts are also part of the required dress code.

 

http://www.girlscouts.org/program/basics/for_volunteers/insignia/uniforms/ 

[MattR]

Might be a reason their youth memberships are learger than BSA and continue to grow.

Who says girl scout membership is growing? It's currently 2.8M and was at a peak of 3.8M in 2003. At least those are the numbers I found.

 

I don't like the patches and bling on the uniforms so I asked my scouts if they'd be willing to wear their uniform to school if there was some special reason. They don't mind the patches. They said the only problem would be dealing with the kids that have no idea what scouts is about. Many students think the BSA is a Christian youth military organization. The scouts don't mind wearing their uniform at meetings and are fine with them on campouts that aren't too cold or warm. They just don't like being put in the middle of the culture war. The only problem we see is getting the scouts to wear the green pants. It's usually a case of kids growing too much.

[walk in the woods]

While the different vests are popular there is also a tunic or sash option as well.  Yet what most people don't point out is the white shirt and khaki pants/shorts are also part of the required dress code.

 

http://www.girlscouts.org/program/basics/for_volunteers/insignia/uniforms/ 

Yep.  White shirt, black pants, tie are also part of the FFA uniform.  But, all those things, once purchased, are multitaskers.