How Do We Make Boy-Led Understood By Adults?

[Stosh]

I guess it just depends on whether one views the boys as leaders or managers of the program.

 

Two of the biggest movements in the business world in the past 40 years have been: 1) Servant Leadership and 2)  Lean - Transaction/Manufacturing.

 

Both rely on a redefinition and movement away from the Peter F. Drucker style of traditional management.  Drucker was the management guru for many years, but further reevaluation by Robert Greenleaf and his Servant Leadership style moved out of the management of task into the leadership of people world and things took off.  The CEO of a multi-billion dollar, international corporation went on record saying, "The worker on the assembly line does not work for this company, we work for them.  They are the ones working for the customer, our only job is to make sure they successful at it."  That was the first step that company took in their step towards Lean Manufacturing.

 

There are a lot of people who think leadership and management are synonymous, but successful group operations know there is a huge difference.  I really don't think the BSA has caught on yet and as an organization promoting leadership, maybe they ought to at least check into it.

[TAHAWK]

BSA could start by teaching what it means by the "Patrol Method."  Even the newest, late-2014 Scoutmaster-Specific syllabus utterly fails to do that - or even has the objective of doing that.

 

But if you gather current BSA pronouncements into one list, I think you get.

 

1. A patrol is a small team of friends who elect their own leader democratically. The team collectively plans and experiences its distinct program.  Everyone on the team has a position.  The Patrol Leader represents the patrol in the troop program committee called the "Patrol Leaders' Council" ("PLC").

 

2. While "sometimes" a patrol acts collectively with other patrols, a Scout primarily experiences Scouting in the patrol setting through the meetings, hikes, campouts, and service projects of his respective patrol. "It’s the place where boys learn skills together, take on leadership responsibilities, perhaps for the first time . . . . “ The Scout thinks of himself as a member of his patrol and only secondarily as a member of the troop in which his patrol scouts. The troop is the league in which the patrol team plays the game of Scouting.   If we don't have patrols, we don't need troops.  There is no "Troop method" in BSA Scouting.

 

3. The collection of patrol teams we call a troop is, in turn, run by a committee of all the Patrol Leaders, the PLC, chaired by the Senior Patrol Leader as a voting member.  The SPL is elected democratically by all the Scouts registered in the Troop. The PLC plans all troop activities as an exercise in representative democracy and then presents their annual plan to the Troop Committee via the Senior Patrol Leader.  The Troop Committee is to do its best to support the PLC's program, recognizing that Scouts are to do all the program planning.  The minority of the time that the troop acts collectively, the SPL is the troop's leader. The SPL appoints all other troop-level leaders, including any Junior Assistant Scoutmasters, although he consults with the Scoutmaster on those appointments.

 

4. Adults act as examples of living Scouting's values, leadership trainers, resources, coaches, and mentors of the Scouts.  They stay "back stage" and allow the Scouts to run their patrols and troop. They directly lead nothing involving Scouts unless a real safety issue arises. They train Scouts in Scoutcraft through the Scouts.  They measure their success in the leadership success of the Scouts and the success of the patrols in the troop.  

 

Adults would find the following strange:

 

 

 

“Little League Coach pitches Parma Nationals to area championship, fanning 17.   "I had to take over.   None of the boys could find the plate."

 

​The adult-run troop is equally bizarre in the context of the Boy scouts of America.  

 

nless the patrol method is in operation, you don’t really have a Boy Scout troop.

 BSA 2015.

 

Yet the bizarre is tolerated.

[Eagle94-A1]

GBB recommended for new troops or troops getting back to the patrol method, that the Sm act mroe like the SPL to get the Scouts trained. He basically showed them how to do it. Over a 6 month period, he gradually stepped back from that role and started the Scouts onthe pacth to runnign everything.

 

I am actyually thinking it may take 5 years to get it running. A good friend who started a troop took 5 years to get it where the boys were running things completely. Oldest son's troop is having some issues, but is boy run.

[Stosh]

#1 & #2 - I have no problem with.

 

#3 & #4 - I find create more problems than they solve.  -  I just have a different idea about the undefined definition of Patrol Method the BSA has not defined.  

 

BSA will toss out some du jour lingo that to some must mean something but no one really understands what they mean.

 

I don't think BSA really knows what it wants when it promotes the patrol method other than that's what BP promoted so they had better too.

[Stosh]

GBB suggests the SM be the SPL for training.  How does the SM know what to train?  Well he reads the book and follows the instructions in the curriculum.  Well, if the boys are fortunate enough to elect an SPL that can read, the SM is not needed, the SPL can and often times does a better job as the boys' peer.  But like I said, the troop has to be fortunate enough to have an SPL that can read.

[TAHAWK]

GBB recommended for new troops or troops getting back to the patrol method, that the Sm act mroe like the SPL to get the Scouts trained. He basically showed them how to do it. Over a 6 month period, he gradually stepped back from that role and started the Scouts onthe pacth to runnign everything.

 

I am actyually thinking it may take 5 years to get it running. A good friend who started a troop took 5 years to get it where the boys were running things completely. Oldest son's troop is having some issues, but is boy run.

 

The first requirement for running the Patrol Method is to run the Patrol Method.  It takes the time to elect the leaders.  They learn on-the-job because the quality of their leadership is secondary to the fact that they are leading.  They will probably perform to the standard of a new, inexperienced, generally clueless kid, and that's perfectly fine.  What kid who never pitched throws a shut-out the first time?  

 

And Stosh, lots of adults think they know better and do it their way.  That's the excuse used to explain the adult-run troop method troops.  They have a different idea than BSA has had for eighty-five years..

 

I think I understand what BSA says because it  has been saying it as long as I have been in Scouting.  It's just that BSA when Bill was there put it all into a concise lists of features and told you to do it or move on.  Now BSA seems so worried about offending anyone that they allow the adults to take away the "field" from the Scouts and play the game themselves.  Or some of them at BSA are incompetent.

 

BSA has suggested for decades - really after Bill said so -- that the SM's leadership training of the leaders should be a joint effort with the SPL.  My Position Card for my first gig as SM says: "1. Train Junior Leaders."  I understood that at the time to mean that I and the SPL would get together to plan the training and he would do as much of the teaching as possible while accomplishing training.  That was my understanding because that is what I was taught formally in training I took and, more importantly, because that was the example set by of my two SMs, one of whom was a USMC Master Gunnery Sgt.  

 

BSA 2015

“Empowering boys to be leaders is the core of Scouting.  Scouts learn by doing, and what they do is lead their patrols and their troop.â€

 

"What is important for us [as adults in Scouting]  is:

NOT a sharp-looking flag ceremony, but that the boys put it together.

...

NOT that we cover everything on the meeting agenda, but that the Senior Patrol Leader is in charge.â€

 

“Except as to matters of safety, neither adults nor Junior Assistant Scoutmasters directly supervise Scout work.  Instead, they work THROUGH the leaders by teaching, advising, counseling, educating, and example.â€

 

“We just have to remember that our business as adults is not the same as the business of the boys. It is up to them to get things done."

 

Scouts are never the barrier to Boy Scouting.  Adults most often are.

Edited May 8, 2015 by TAHAWK

[Stosh]

The first requirement for running the Patrol Method is to run the Patrol Method.  It takes the time to elect the leaders.  They learn on-the-job because the quality of their leadership is secondary to the fact that they are leading.  They will probably perform to the standard of a new, inexperienced, generally clueless kid, and that's perfectly fine.  What kid who never pitched throws a shut-out the first time?  

 

And Stosh, lots of adults think they know better and do it their way.  That's the excuse used to explain the adult-run troop method troops.  They have a different idea than BSA has had for eighty-five years..

 

And as well as BSA has promoted this ideal, very few adults actually understand and follow it's principles.  From my view of how a lot of troops are run and as a UC in our district, I find that the patrol method is not generally used.  This is a point that is well established in the mythology of a well run troop.

 

I think I understand what BSA says because it  has been saying it as long as I have been in Scouting.  It's just that BSA when Bill was there put it all into a concise lists of features and told you to do it or move on.  Now BSA seems so worried about offending anyone that they allow the adults to take away the "field" from the Scouts and play the game themselves.  Or some of them at BSA are incompetent.

 

No argument from me on this point, either.

 

BSA has suggested for decades - really after Bill said so -- that the SM's leadership training of the leaders should be a joint effort with the SPL.  My Position Card for my first gig as SM says: "1. Train Junior Leaders."  I understood that at the time to mean that I and the SPL would get together to plan the training and he would do as much of the teaching as possible while accomplishing training.  That was my understanding because that is what I was taught formally in training I took and, more importantly, because that was the example set by of my two SMs, one of whom was a USMC Master Gunnery Sgt.  

 

Assuming one has an SPL.  A troop of 16 boys, 2 patrols, do they really need a referee for the two PL's?  I find that what happens in small troops and even to a lesser degree in larger troops, the SPL operates as a minion of the SM and can be just as disruptive to the patrol method as an adult.

 

BSA 2015

“Empowering boys to be leaders is the core of Scouting.  Scouts learn by doing, and what they do is lead their patrols and their troop.â€

 

Totally agree.

 

"What is important for us [as adults in Scouting]  is:

NOT a sharp-looking flag ceremony, but that the boys put it together.

 

Not many scout activities in my troop occur until flags are done.  It never gets left on the pole afterwards either.  As SM I have not "reminded" the boys to do this, it is always on their own initiative.  Last weekend at camporee the camp-wide flags were done on Saturday morning and evening.  My boys had flag ceremonies in camp-site on Friday and Sunday as well as Saturday.

...

NOT that we cover everything on the meeting agenda, but that the Senior Patrol Leader is in charge.â€

 

And here's the first rub.  "In charge".... of what?  This is the point at which I find many SPL's interfering in the patrol method operations.  What's disconcerting most often is the process by which the SPL's is selected.  I have found the most effective SPLs I have had were selected by the PL's  rather than the general populace of the troop who tend to pick by popularity rather than functionality.  I had one SPL that "ran the troop" to the point where it was a boy-led, troop-method unit.  He was a mini-dictator that no one wanted to follow.  So much for his leadership qualifications.  He didn't last out his SPL tenure.  After that fiasco, my PL's picked the SPL they wanted supporting them and things have always run a lot better.  Right now with the numbers I have I have no SPL,-not needed.

 

“Except as to matters of safety, neither adults nor Junior Assistant Scoutmasters directly supervise Scout work.  Instead, they work THROUGH the leaders by teaching, advising, counseling, educating, and example.†

 

In a patrol-method troop, an SPL is pretty much useless unless one has multiple patrols to support.  My SPL's when I had them were trained to support the success of the PL's, nothing more and it worked well for all concerned JASM's are a total waste of time.  Never had one in my troop, never will.  There is no functional place in the patrol method for them.  When my boys Eagle, they stay in functional POR's usually as TG or PL's.  Even had one DC who was an Eagle.  Younger boy's not getting their shot at a POR for advancement?  To bad, watch, learn and earn the right to lead.  I have boys doing that all the time.

 

“We just have to remember that our business as adults is not the same as the business of the boys. It is up to them to get things done."

 

Yep

 

Scouts are never the barrier to Boy Scouting.  Adults most often are.

 

Never say never.  I have seen many times where domineering troop officers, especially SPL's are not a barrier to Boy Scouting but surely are a barrier to the patrol method.  They are told they are in charge of the troop and instead begin to think they run the patrols.  They undermine the PL's and interfere in the operation of the patrol method,, just like the adults like to to do.

 

Here is where I differ with the BSA.  My troop officers SUPPORT THE SUCCESS of the PL's.  They are trained to do what it takes to enable the PL's to successfully run their patrols.  The QM supports the patrol QM, the Scribe supports the patrol scribe, the TG supports the fledgling NSP PL, etc.

 

As a matter of fact, the servant leadership model and patrol method combination has served my troops very well, to the point where I was asked to leave a troop because "the boys were expected to do too much leadership".  A couple of the boys who were basic slackers whined to their parents to get out of helping out in the troop.  I was interrupted and removed during a GBB training session with the boys.  

 

I may do things a bit differently than the BSA model, but the combination of servant leadership stated in the PL Handbook and the patrol method, poorly defined, but promoted by BSA, have served me well.  At least my district  leadership seems to think so.  DE asked me to set up a new troop and my DC asked to be my ASM to learn what I was doing.

 

The nice thing about it all is that while I have 30+ years in with the council, I've never been invited into the Good Old Boys group, which suits me just fine.  I am, however, one of the few that can challenge them and get away with it.  

 

 

Edited May 8, 2015 by Stosh

[Gone]

 

There are a lot of people who think leadership and management are synonymous, but successful group operations know there is a huge difference.  I really don't think the BSA has caught on yet and as an organization promoting leadership, maybe they ought to at least check into it.

 

Don't hold your breath @@Stosh. BSA is essentially run like a non-profit organization. Those organizations are notorious for layers of management and poorly implemented programs. Leadership, while possible, is not a core competency of non-profits.

 

What BSA needs are some retired Fortune 500 execs to come in and really build an infrastructure that can work. 

[perdidochas]

The first requirement for running the Patrol Method is to run the Patrol Method.  It takes the time to elect the leaders.  They learn on-the-job because the quality of their leadership is secondary to the fact that they are leading.  They will probably perform to the standard of a new, inexperienced, generally clueless kid, and that's perfectly fine.  What kid who never pitched throws a shut-out the first time?  

 

And Stosh, lots of adults think they know better and do it their way.  That's the excuse used to explain the adult-run troop method troops.  They have a different idea than BSA has had for eighty-five years..

 

I think I understand what BSA says because it  has been saying it as long as I have been in Scouting.  It's just that BSA when Bill was there put it all into a concise lists of features and told you to do it or move on.  Now BSA seems so worried about offending anyone that they allow the adults to take away the "field" from the Scouts and play the game themselves.  Or some of them at BSA are incompetent.

 

BSA has suggested for decades - really after Bill said so -- that the SM's leadership training of the leaders should be a joint effort with the SPL.  My Position Card for my first gig as SM says: "1. Train Junior Leaders."  I understood that at the time to mean that I and the SPL would get together to plan the training and he would do as much of the teaching as possible while accomplishing training.  That was my understanding because that is what I was taught formally in training I took and, more importantly, because that was the example set by of my two SMs, one of whom was a USMC Master Gunnery Sgt.  

 

BSA 2015

“Empowering boys to be leaders is the core of Scouting.  Scouts learn by doing, and what they do is lead their patrols and their troop.â€

 

"What is important for us [as adults in Scouting]  is:

NOT a sharp-looking flag ceremony, but that the boys put it together.

...

NOT that we cover everything on the meeting agenda, but that the Senior Patrol Leader is in charge.â€

 

“Except as to matters of safety, neither adults nor Junior Assistant Scoutmasters directly supervise Scout work.  Instead, they work THROUGH the leaders by teaching, advising, counseling, educating, and example.â€

 

“We just have to remember that our business as adults is not the same as the business of the boys. It is up to them to get things done."

 

Scouts are never the barrier to Boy Scouting.  Adults most often are.

 

There is no doubt that an adult led and run troop would be more efficient, easier, faster, etc.  But our goal is not to be efficient and faster, etc. Our goal is to develop boys into leaders and good men.  Boy led and run troops are the way to do that.

[Stosh]

Don't hold your breath @@Stosh. BSA is essentially run like a non-profit organization. Those organizations are notorious for layers of management and poorly implemented programs. Leadership, while possible, is not a core competency of non-profits.

 

What BSA needs are some retired Fortune 500 execs to come in and really build an infrastructure that can work. 

 

Unfortunately for the boys, BSA is teaching what they are practicing and that just isn't what Boy Scouts is all about.

[TAHAWK]

 

 

 

There is no doubt that an adult led and run troop would be more efficient, easier, faster, etc.  But our goal is not to be efficient and faster, etc. Our goal is to develop boys into leaders and good men.  Boy led and run troops are the way to do that.

 

And if it were important to BSA, what could BSA do -- ans stop doing -- to better teach and encourage that view?

 

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[Stosh]

 

And if it were important to BSA, what could BSA do -- ans stop doing -- to better teach and encourage that view?

 

 

First of all it needs to recognize what make Scouting an important program for youth today.  What is it's goal that it is to accomplish.  If it looks at other programs out there and tries to compete by emulating them, well, they are a day late and a dollar short.  They will always be playing catch-up.

 

But for most, scouting, is a lot more than that.  Who really cares who swam the fastest at the YMCA pool, or whether the kids had fun hiking the back trails behind the Boy and Girl's Club.   And for that matter who cares if some kid holds the conference record for 4X4 relay.  But somehow people notice when someone puts Eagle Scout on their resume.  Historically that meant something because the program meant something special, like no one else out there has.  BSA used to be out in the forefront of character development among our young men.  In other words they LED.  In recent years they have begun to look at the business marketing model and realize they are losing market share and have begun to FOLLOW the market indicators.  They are now becoming generic along with the other programs out there for youth.

 

The standards on which Scouting was based have changed.  The new Cub Scout program is easy to fix because it's just another youth oriented entertainment program for young boys.  But once the boys get to Scouting, the program is pretty watered down.

 

Instead of opening up opportunities that no one else does, instead of providing the adventure they promise in the literature, instead of holding to a standard higher than anyone else, they end up in the long run doing nothing more than having boys find out the reality of scouting is really not there.

 

Sure, some scouts make it all the way through, but is it because they wanted it or their parents did.  Did they do it for the leadership training or character building aspects or just a check mark on the resume or college entrance application or did they do it just because dad was an Eagle Scout?

 

With a clear vision of leadership, character building, boy-led, patrol method and how that all works together, they can start holding the feet to the fire all those leaders who are in it for all the wrong reasons.

 

So you really think teaching SM's about woods tools is as important as teaching them how to develop real leadership within their youth?  How about how well one can start a fire vs. how well one develops the patrol method in their units.  

 

One of the units I am UC for was explaining to me how boy-led, patrol-method his unit was.  His NSP was now ready to take their place in the older boy patrols.  The long process of making sure each boy was a good fit in every patrol was crucial for the adults to determine so that everyone can be successful.

 

He was really proud of the fact that the boys were at the point where they functioned well enough at patrol cooking that they could invite the adult leaders for meals.

 

The more he talked the more I cringed.  This SM was totally stunned that my troop does not, nor is expected to cook for the adults.  The adults cook and eat separately or they don't eat.  

 

He then went on to say the adults were too busy to be cooking for themselves.  Too busy doing what?  I didn't ask.....

 

By now every red flag known to humanity had gone off in the back of my head.  He had no idea what boy-led, patrol-method was all about.  He was at a disadvantage in that his profession was that of high school teacher.  It is unfortunate that all of his profession training is pretty much counter-intuitive to what is necessary to run a scout troop.

 

Sometimes growth and change are a good thing..... sometimes it isn't.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  

 

I think that if one were to poll all the SM's in scouting today, you would get as many different definitions of scouting as there are SM's.  And THAT is the problem.  No one knows, not even National.

[Eagle94-A1]

If this is going on a tangent, please bear with me as I am not trying to.

 

I stated that my friend may be right in taking 5 years or more to get a troop to be fully independent of the adults. I know some of the issues I'm seeing with my son's troop are the following

 

1) SPL is not mature enough, doesn't have the self-confidence for the job, nor the respect from some of the "older" Scouts. Part of that is the fact that the troop is so young, oldest scout is 14, and we've had an influx of new scouts in the past 18 months. Troop has tripled in size since when my son joined and has 2 NSPs. WHile the SPL has the KSAs and training to do the job,  and I've told him repeatedly he's doing a good job, he does get frustrated with the older Scouts not listening. He also get uncomfortable speaking and running things when the stuttering breaks out.

 

HOWEVER, With the 3 SPLs I've seen, each one is doing a better job than the previous one. The PLs, especially the  NSP my son was in, are doing their jobs better than previous PLs. Grant you, my son helps alot with his old patrol, but I and others can see the improvement. And our second NSP has made strides since they first came to the troop in Decemeber. I just hope when they get  5 new Scouts at the end of the month, it doesn't affect the dynamics too much.

 

2) IMHO, when you have such a young troop, and you really do not have a Troop Guide that is really capable of doing the job justice, you do need a few ASMs who understand the Patrol Method, and can work with and mentor the PL and TG without telling them what to do. Normally that would eb the SPL, ASPL, and other "older Scouts' " jobs IMHO. But I know I've had to "get involved" for lack of a better term, and counsel and mentor a PL who'se TG basically abandoned the NSP. What I found ironic was that when the TG realized he essentially abandoned his patrol, that patrol is doing quite well.

[Stosh]

If this is going on a tangent, please bear with me as I am not trying to.

 

I stated that my friend may be right in taking 5 years or more to get a troop to be fully independent of the adults. I know some of the issues I'm seeing with my son's troop are the following

 

1) SPL is not mature enough, doesn't have the self-confidence for the job, nor the respect from some of the "older" Scouts. Part of that is the fact that the troop is so young, oldest scout is 14, and we've had an influx of new scouts in the past 18 months. Troop has tripled in size since when my son joined and has 2 NSPs. WHile the SPL has the KSAs and training to do the job,  and I've told him repeatedly he's doing a good job, he does get frustrated with the older Scouts not listening. He also get uncomfortable speaking and running things when the stuttering breaks out.

 

HOWEVER, With the 3 SPLs I've seen, each one is doing a better job than the previous one. The PLs, especially the  NSP my son was in, are doing their jobs better than previous PLs. Grant you, my son helps alot with his old patrol, but I and others can see the improvement. And our second NSP has made strides since they first came to the troop in Decemeber. I just hope when they get  5 new Scouts at the end of the month, it doesn't affect the dynamics too much.

 

2) IMHO, when you have such a young troop, and you really do not have a Troop Guide that is really capable of doing the job justice, you do need a few ASMs who understand the Patrol Method, and can work with and mentor the PL and TG without telling them what to do. Normally that would eb the SPL, ASPL, and other "older Scouts' " jobs IMHO. But I know I've had to "get involved" for lack of a better term, and counsel and mentor a PL who'se TG basically abandoned the NSP. What I found ironic was that when the TG realized he essentially abandoned his patrol, that patrol is doing quite well.

 

Maybe

 

First of all I would have never had the SPL.  I would have focused on the PL's running their patrols before I introduced an SPL into the process.   Sounds like a lot of the problems holding back the boys, and wasting 5 years time, is the functionality of the SPL.  Seriously... HE IS NOT ALL THAT NECESSARY!  I have served as SM in troops as large as 25 boys and never needed an SPL.

We did just fine without one.

 

I have a brand new troop.  No TG, no SPL, just a PL and his patrol.  I do not have any traditions to overcome and there are no expectations except what the boys want to do.  I'm doing just fine with the boys.

 

I train when asked.  I do whatever the PL ask and we go places, go to camp, we attend camporees, and the boys are having a great time.  

 

We have just marked our first anniversary, taken on a new Webelos boy and he's fitting in nicely.

 

This months outing was camporee, next month is summer camp, and the boys are working on a July activity now.  

 

We have no QM so the boys all set up the donated tents we received to make sure all the parts were there and in good shape.  That was what the PL planned when he found 6 tents that just showed up in our scout closet.  

 

These were old Eureka tents that the boys didn't know how to set up, so the PL and I set the first one up, the PL and patrol did the rest.

 

Not bad for 12 year old boys.  

 

Other than help set up the first tent, no adult associated with the boys for the evening, other than the ASM brought treats for the boys.

 

I'm glad we got 4 more years of development before we can be boy-led, patrol-method  

[MattR]

I had a month without an SPL as I had no choice, and I made huge progress with the PLs. I was surprised. I tried describing to the old SPL what his job is and he would understand but he'd just fall back on old habits. I was frustrated. The new SPL is picking this up because he's watching me. I figured out the SPL has to see it to learn it. For some reason the PLs are soaking things up easier. Lesson learned is grow it from the bottom up.

 

It's little details like this that are missing from the training.

 

The current training is based on the simplest training. You have someone that can only spend 6 hours learning about scouts and they won't do any more. So they get a very brief overview that will work if the troop is already in a good place but won't help anyone that wants to make a change. It is what it is.  But there's a whole range of other adults that can and would do more if they had the resources. What does the training look like that adapts to all these people? Something where you can keep coming back and slowly improve. Something that describes real situations and typical problems in some detail rather than vague situations.

 

Remember when Pack18Alex came here asking for help and there was this huge disconnect? That was the last we heard of him and it's a real shame. At the same time this has been the only useful resource I've used. We need more than just a forum.