Lgbt Group Will Pay Bsa $50,000 To Lift Ban On Gay Adult Leaders

[moosetracker]

Everyone else has done my work for me nicely.. Thanks guys..  And that is exactly how I stated it..

"To prove this you will need to point out to me the public pressure (outside of their own church membership) that have been all over churches to force them to perform homosexual marriages.. For this same prediction was raised by conservatives over the legalization of Gay marriages.. Your predictions have been wrong.. The only time you get in trouble is when you try to enforce your viewpoint on the public who do not hold your same belief .." 

 

You did not name churches.. You named businesses.. And businesses are fair game.. I do not think I have trouble with what I say, you seem to have trouble interpreting what I say..

 

I have not stated otherwise anywhere.. I have stated at least twice now that CO's that are a business will be pressured to be open to the public (including gays), or they will have to drop their charter..

Edited May 5, 2015 by moosetracker

[Peregrinator]

Stosh et al

 

A question fo you, and this is a genuine question, something that I have never quite figured out.

 

In the books of the law in the Bible there are all kinds of strange laws that we no longer follow. The most well known being no consumption of shell fish, or pork or wearing of mixed fibers. There's plenty more where they came from too.

 

The majoirty of these laws are ignored by the overwhelming majority of Christians.

 

Why is it that the law against homosexuality is one that you feel needs to be followed when so many of the other laws have been dropped?

 

Because unlike, say, the dietary laws, it was never explicitly abrogated and in fact is restated in the letters of St. Paul.

[DuctTape]

Stosh et al

 

A question fo you, and this is a genuine question, something that I have never quite figured out.

 

In the books of the law in the Bible there are all kinds of strange laws that we no longer follow. The most well known being no consumption of shell fish, or pork or wearing of mixed fibers. There's plenty more where they came from too.

 

The majoirty of these laws are ignored by the overwhelming majority of Christians.

 

Why is it that the law against homosexuality is one that you feel needs to be followed when so many of the other laws have been dropped?

As others have mentioned, it is a result of Pauls teachings which were not always consistent withcthe teachings of James and Peter. Why Pauls theology became the "accepted truth" instead of that of the other apostles is mostly a result of Paul teaching to gentiles which grew his following much greater. Some believe Pauls teachings were the will of Gd, others believe Paul was no more than any other human with fall8vle interpretations at the time. Not all apostles agreed all the time, the fact one (and not an original 12) is elevated to a level above others (due to some believing his own vision) makes some question his authority.

[AZMike]

Everyone else has done my work for me nicely.. Thanks guys..  And that is exactly how I stated it..

"To prove this you will need to point out to me the public pressure (outside of their own church membership) that have been all over churches to force them to perform homosexual marriages.. For this same prediction was raised by conservatives over the legalization of Gay marriages.. Your predictions have been wrong.. The only time you get in trouble is when you try to enforce your viewpoint on the public who do not hold your same belief .." 

 

You did not name churches.. You named businesses.. And businesses are fair game.. I do not think I have trouble with what I say, you seem to have trouble interpreting what I say..

 

I have not stated otherwise anywhere.. I have stated at least twice now that CO's that are a business will be pressured to be open to the public (including gays), or they will have to drop their charter..

 

I appreciate your honesty. Yes, as you said, any businesses or charitable organizations associated with them will be subject to harassment / boycotts / threats if they fail to follow the new party line. Why is that so hard for people to admit?

 

I did not name churches because you asked for examples of churches being pressured by outsiders, not by schisms within the churches. 

 

I did in fact name the largest LGBT pressure group in my reply, which is not affiliated with the Catholic Church, nor is it made up primarily of Catholics, which is pressuring bishops to accept same-sex marriage. Why did you skip over that, Moosetracker?

 

Here's another example: The Bishop of San Francisco Diocese is currently the target of an attack by an outside because the church does not accept teachers who are in a same-sex marriage. An outside public relations firm (which, which refuses to disclose who is paying it, has paid demonstrators to picket and disrupt parish events The aforementioned Human Rights Campaign, a secular, non-Catholic LGBT pressure group, is among the groups paying for Sam Singer's company to pressure the bishop. (Singer's company also has represented a host of oil companies involved in environmental disasters, as well as the two largest SF newspapers.) http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/oil-company-hit-man-has-archbishop-cordileone-in-his-sights-96081/

[Eagledad]

 Also no one follows everything in the bible, it you did you would be arrested.

 

Oh Moose, that you believe it shows how lost you are with your own religion. The Bible doesn’t force us to make the choice between being a martyr or hypocrite. But you wouldn’t know that, you only google enough of the bible to use it as a sword. In your ignorance, you can’t see it as a shield.

 

You keep talking about my interpretation of the scripture I posted, but I didn’t give an interpretation. You gave one and put my name on it to make your point. You deceptively used my words to further your agenda. I wonder, could you sway people to your position without denigrating or being deceptive?

 

I believe the bible is an instruction book for how adults are to behave around children. I have told my kids that many times hoping that they would understand the true significant of the responsibility as adults to raising youth. A couple is situations have occurred recently that reinforces to me how adult behavior can affect a culture of youth.

 

First, I meet my with high school teacher son most Saturday mornings for breakfast at the diner. They grow up so fast. Anyway he told me recently that one of his close gay teacher friends is no longer gay. She met a man and is having a wonderful relationship with him now. I asked him if that means she is bi-sexual. He asked her that very question and she said no. She is now heterosexual. They are close, but he left the discussion at that.

 

The second thing that happen which really has me afraid of the present cultural situation is a discussion I read somewhere. The discussion was the legal ramifications in a subject of abortion, but abortion isn’t the point here, moral responsibility is. So please don’t go off on that rabbit trail. Anyway, there are some states (maybe all) that if driver is found at fault for killing the unborn baby of the mother in the other car, the person can be tried for manslaughter of that baby and sent to jail. But it was found in this situation that the mother was driving to an abortion clinic to kill her unborn baby. You can understand the complexity of the subject.

 

Btu for me, it was very simple and very scary. As I said, I believe the bible is a guideline to how adults are supposed to behave around kids. How does one explain morality in a culture with such contradicting views of life? We have made the responsibility for life so insignificant, that there is no way to explain it to our youth that makes any moral sense. Even an atheist would struggle here,  It bothers me a lot because I don’t see how an adult can explain it without going off on some political rant. How terrifying it must be to a young person when life means more than just an agenda for the next election cycle. I was telling my son at breakfast that kids in my day didn’t have these issues or conflicts. It wasn’t all that long ago.

 

You are lucky Moose that you believe in only the one scripture where you are saved through Jesus Christ. Good for you, it is a safe place. But, if you ever dare decide to ponder through the rest of the bible to gain some wisdom, you will learn why Jesus tells us to sin no more. The bible explains that sin is a self-serving act which is usually destructive to those around us. You only have to hold a crying scout who just learned of their parent’s divorce to see how devastating it is to them. They don’t fully recover; their lives are changed forever, usually for the worse. I’ve seen it because I am at the age where the hundreds of scouts, soccer players, baseball, and other youth I’ve guided in the past are now adults. I’ve seen how their lives were affected by their adults around them.

 

A culture is important because it supposed protects its youth by setting boundaries that prevent us from making wrong choices when we are weak. Who among us here haven’t had a time in our lives when we were confused and our emotions were whirling around so much that we couldn’t tell up from down, much less right from wrong. But now our culture not only allows our youth to act on their emotions, it is encouraged. Who knows why my sons friend made her choice about here sexual perference when she was young, but I think it likely she didn’t have the right role models around her. How many lonely confused young people looking for something to ease their pain are lead down the wrong path because the one person who gave them the time a day also was drowning in their own moral conflict.

 

Just how much power do we as individuals have on the youth we are around. I have been told by several boys that they chose engineering because of me. I'm flattered, but what if they said they chose a lifestyle because of me. Just how responsible are we for the choices are youth make because of what we say and what we do? 

 

Accepting gay adults in the BSA program is all about accepting the wrong role models. The simple title of being gay could forever change the life of a boy who is in a weak place. When if comes down to it, homosexuality is a sexual lifestyle and that is too much influence for youth at this age in an organization where role modeling is a key element of boy growth. So, I don’t believe the BSA should bow down to the force of change from a culture that is fickle with sexuality. Scouting can be one of the safe places where a young confused and weak boy can rest from the pressures of the world.

 

That is my pragmatic reason for the BSA to stay out of political cultural pressure. The youth are the future, activist don’t care about the scorched earth ruins they leave on of our sons and daughters, they only care about their agenda.

 

Barry

[LeCastor]

Change is inevitable and it's all around us.  Some here have likened it to loosening morals/values.  Others have pointed to traditions and long-standing policies.  Let's stop bickering about it and move forward into the second decade of the 21st century.  

 

One day heterosexuals are going to realize that homosexuals are just people.  The "gay agenda" is getting up in the morning, taking a shower, getting dressed, and going to work.  Gay/Lesbian/Bi-Sexual Scouters only want to help young men and women grow into fine citizens.  

 

As Sentinel said, we should poll the Scouts and gauge what they think about all this bickering and in-fighting.  The Scouts are highly influenced by the actions of Scouters who they see.  The youth will model your behavior and if that means fighting and fomenting further divisions in society I'm afraid we aren't doing our collective duty to encourage our Scouts to question traditions and long-standing policies.  

[Peregrinator]

As others have mentioned, it is a result of Pauls teachings which were not always consistent withcthe teachings of James and Peter. Why Pauls theology became the "accepted truth" instead of that of the other apostles is mostly a result of Paul teaching to gentiles which grew his following much greater. Some believe Pauls teachings were the will of Gd, others believe Paul was no more than any other human with fall8vle interpretations at the time. Not all apostles agreed all the time, the fact one (and not an original 12) is elevated to a level above others (due to some believing his own vision) makes some question his authority.

I don't think that James' and Peter's teaching on homosexuality is inconsistent with that of Paul. Unless you're making an argument from silence?

[Peregrinator]

One day heterosexuals are going to realize that homosexuals are just people.  The "gay agenda" is getting up in the morning, taking a shower, getting dressed, and going to work.  Gay/Lesbian/Bi-Sexual Scouters only want to help young men and women grow into fine citizens.  

What is preventing them from doing so outside of the BSA? One would think that an association like the BPSA would be a haven for such people.

[AZMike]

 

 

As for those business examples, that kind of exercise of the 1st amendment has been happening for as long as this has been a country, or longer. If you don't like a business owner then don't do business - tell your friends and other people about it - organize a boycott. I won't attend any conference in this state because of a long-standing boycott. Am I bad because of that?

The fact that business owners hold a certain political view is not privileged information if they have divulged that fact publicly and people are free to inform others of the fact. People are also free to promote boycotts for any reason they like. I know of an informal boycott in which a very successful businessman has been driven to ruin merely because he publicly disagreed with a government decision regarding a construction project. He knew the score and felt it was worth the risk to be able to express his opinion. He paid the consequences. It's not a Brave New Word at all. Welcome to real life and a very old world of business. If you pretend to serve the public, it would probably be good business to actually DO it. 

 

 

Certainly, one can start or join a boycott. Would you agree that the other tactics I mentioned are wrong, all of which have been employed against those who oppose SSM or simply don't want to participate in a SSM ceremony, or (now) agree to participate but inform those who made them do so that they have religious objections to SSM (as in the Wildflower Inn case) should lose their businesses and their reputations for a sincerely held belief that was the stated view of the President just a few years back?  It is a brave new world, indeed.

 

Should people who hold such views receive death threats, forged derogatory Yelp reviews, anonymous calls in the middle of the night, human rights board complaints, a barrage of defamatory tweets,  demands to remove the CO's state tax exemption as a "discriminatory organization,"  hostile emails sent to one's business associates and clients - all of which have happened?

 

That you and Moosetracker agree and seem to approve of using the local option to collapse all resistance to homosexual adult leadership within the BSA is part of your right to express your opinion - why would you deny it to others?  

[DuctTape]

I don't think that James' and Peter's teaching on homosexuality is inconsistent with that of Paul. Unless you're making an argument from silence?

No, I was being general in the sense that there were inconsistencies between Paul and the apostles. And that some do not believe, now as then, that Paul was infallible in his own interpretation. First and 2nd century history is fascinating, although it requires some to question dogma.

[LeCastor]

What is preventing them from doing so outside of the BSA? 

 

Nothing.

[moosetracker]

AZMike - I will study your examples.. The second one (the school) may be run by a church, but it is not a church.. As for CO's who are a business or preform a public service I have no issue with the public pressuring them into opening it's scouting units to gays..

 

 

 

I am still unsure what is 'unmoral' about being gay ? Yeah the old  'man should not lie with man like he does with women' bit is in the bible, but so is lots and lots and lots of other random passages from not being allowed to wear two types of fabric, women being teachers etc that don't relate to the modern world. I'm sure if Jesus would be around today he'd be hanging out with the gays, as he hung out with prostitutes  (and thats from an Atheist)

 

I'm sure you're right, but somewhere during his time with them he would say, "go and sin no more" (That's from John 8:11).

Barry

 

Well if your use of "go and sin no more" is not based on your interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, then it makes no sense for you to use it to answer tyke's question.. Basically everything in the Bible is based on someone's interpretation of it.. 

 

As for you one gay who turned straight, therefore all gays can be straight example.. I can regale you with a story of a gay man and lesbian women who married (in order to give the woman US citizenship) and loved and treated each other very close to man and wife, except for in one respect.. The man died of aids and the women cared for him until the end, and was in tears that regardless of their feelings for each other it could never translate over to a sexual attraction for each other so that they could have had a normal relationship..  Some people who are not gay still in their youth have sexual experimentation.. Perhaps your friends friend was experimenting in her youth and never really gay.. Perhaps she is currently lying to herself now, and is still attracted to women... But, no a homosexual doesn't just turn straight, as has been proven throughout history with failed psycotheropy, or brainwashing experiments..

[packsaddle]

Certainly, one can start or join a boycott. Would you agree that the other tactics I mentioned are wrong, all of which have been employed against those who oppose SSM or simply don't want to participate in a SSM ceremony, or (now) agree to participate but inform those who made them do so that they have religious objections to SSM (as in the Wildflower Inn case) should lose their businesses and their reputations for a sincerely held belief that was the stated view of the President just a few years back?  It is a brave new world, indeed.

 

In response: Personally, when a business owner denies service to me because of who I am, I am likely to 1) inform others like me of the fact, 2) file a complaint to the BBB, 3) take my money elsewhere. As I have stated before, I consider threats to be cowardly. Creating lies is immoral and perhaps illegal. But if there are enough of us to boycott and advertise the action to enlist sympathy, I support that action.

 

Should people who hold such views receive death threats, forged derogatory Yelp reviews, anonymous calls in the middle of the night, human rights board complaints, a barrage of defamatory tweets,  demands to remove the CO's state tax exemption as a "discriminatory organization,"  hostile emails sent to one's business associates and clients - all of which have happened?

 

Answer: No. These kinds of tactics and worse have also been employed against gays. They are wrong either way.

 

That you and Moosetracker agree and seem to approve of using the local option to collapse all resistance to homosexual adult leadership within the BSA is part of your right to express your opinion - why would you deny it to others?  

 

AZMike, you are doing a great job of expressing your opinion. I greatly respect your right and your exceptional ability to do it. You're not being denied that right or ability through local option. It merely allows that freedom at a 'lower' level of organization. If anything it expands those abilities.

[AZMike]

AZMike - I will study your examples.. The second one (the school) may be run by a church, but it is not a church.. As for CO's who are a business or preform a public service I have no issue with the public pressuring them into opening it's scouting units to gays..

 

What many overlook in claiming that churches won't be affected is that many "church" COs are actually not churches, but social groups affiliated with the church - PTAs, Knights of Columbus, etc. Would they be granted the same protections as a church? Probably not, and they would be subject to the same social harassment as any other group.

 

As for you one gay who turned straight, therefore all gays can be straight example.. I can regale you with a story of a gay man and lesbian women who married (in order to give the woman US citizenship) and loved and treated each other very close to man and wife, except for in one respect.. The man died of aids and the women cared for him until the end, and was in tears that regardless of their feelings for each other it could never translate over to a sexual attraction for each other so that they could have had a normal relationship..  Some people who are not gay still in their youth have sexual experimentation.. Perhaps your friends friend was experimenting in her youth and never really gay.. Perhaps she is currently lying to herself now, and is still attracted to women... But, no a homosexual doesn't just turn straight, as has been proven throughout history with failed psycotheropy, or brainwashing experiments..

 

Anne Heche might disagree with you.

 

It's kind of a pointless argument. If someone who identifies as gay decides that he or she is no longer gay and wants to have sex with people of the opposite sex now, the argument then becomes "Well, they were never really gay in the first place, or are just bisexual." If a person identifies himself or herself as straight, then later starts having sex with people of the same sex, the argument becomes that change is possible, and/or that he/she was secretly gay all along, or somesuch."

 

There certainly are some people who always have and always will identify as gay, just as there are some who do the same as straights. Between those two poles of complex human behavior, there is a large group that aren't sure, or who may identify as gay or straight at different times in their lives. In the case of the young, I would argue that they shouldn't be pressured to make a decision one way or another. If it's wrong to use therapy to try to force them into identifying as straight, it's equally wrong to use social pressure to force them into prematurely accepting a self-identification as "gay."

 

The well-regarded research study that showed that the majority of youths who self-identify as gay in anonymous polling drop that description within 5 years and self-identify as hetero shows that for some young people, their sexual identity is flexible, but the majority of that group do sort out their feelings and decide they are straight. (There was not a similar switch to being gay for youths who identify as straight.)  So yes, many people, especially young ones, who identify as gay later "turn straight," as you said. 

 

The desire by the LGBT community to claim that once someone is identified as gay, they can never turn back, but a straight person may well "come out" is more than a little weird. It's like the old saying that "what's mine is mine, what's yours is....negotiable."

Edited May 5, 2015 by AZMike

[qwazse]

No, I was being general in the sense that there were inconsistencies between Paul and the apostles. And that some do not believe, now as then, that Paul was infallible in his own interpretation. First and 2nd century history is fascinating, although it requires some to question dogma.

You mean, like when Peter wrote this in his first epistle?

"... our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,…"

 

It seems like the Saints don't give us much room to favor one over the other.