AZMike Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 AZMike - he was mid-40's.. But l agree with Stosh, what does age have to do with a higher ruling from some sort of area (sorry, I was so happy with the answer itself, I really didn't pay attention to what level this decision was made, but it was higher then his church itself.. Stosh - I didn't go from Catholic Church to Catholic Church until I found a priest that gave me the answer I wanted to hear.. I was the UC for units that belonged to a Catholic church.. The priest of that church was the one and only person I could go to in order to get an answer of if I had to look for a new CO for these units.. I do know the priest was personally happy with the ruling.. Now does that mean the church would accept a homosexual as a leader? I didn't really ask that, but I would guess not, or if they did it would just be with the committee for something like Popcorn Kernel or something.. I think more that they were fine with it going to local option.. They were not in the need to deny other religions the right to practice their religious beliefs.. I do know this priest was fine if a homosexual youth was in his unit.. We had leaders from the troop at the meeting and they were a little shaken with the decision... The Discussion went something like this : Troop leader : So what do we do if we get a homosexual youth. Me: With most kids they do not figure out their sexual attraction until they reach puberty or after, by then they will already have been in your troop for a few years.. After working with them for years, would you really feel comfortable kicking them out? Priest : That's correct.. They will already be a member, and we will have working relationship with them.. Troop leader : Well that's true, we can shape their attitude.. Me: Oh, no the BSA does not get involved in any of our scouts sex lives.. You can't use BSA to try to change their sexual orientation.. Priest: Correct, the church would not approve of you doing anything like that either.. Troop leader: No, No, I didn't quite mean that.. More like they will know how the troop operates, and since we do not discuss sexual issues and never have, either they will know and understand that, or they can be taken aside and reminded it is not an appropriate topic.. This should be fine.. But I don't know if I could accept a homosexual as a troop leader.. Me: You have always had the right to decide the best troop leaders and what is the best person for which position.. The church also has to sign off on the leadership choice. It is just that some other troops in the area may accept homosexuals in positions of leadership.. Priest: This is correct. The church and you still have the freedom to choose our leadership.. Troop leader: Then I don't see this being any problem.. (Can't say this was it word for word.. The discussion was over a year ago.. But, this is close to what it was..) Anyway I will note that this Priest and I have always gotten along famously, and have never been in disagreement on anything, even though you and I can't agree on much.. I know there are conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics.. All I can say is luckily being in the North even the Catholics seem to be more liberal, so I haven't knocked many of their heads together.. The Catholic Church is the original Big Tent. There is a wide range of beliefs, but if beliefs are very different, we don't kick people out of the faith to form their own schism, we keep them inside the tent and argue some more. There is no mechanism to remove someone from the religion, even excommunication is simply a discipline that deprives someone of the sacraments, always meant to be corrective and not meant to be permanent. I always feel there is a kinship or bond between me and every other Catholic, even if we disagree on most issues - we're still part of the same family (this applies to my feelings towards other Christian faiths as well). I don't even define myself as a liberal or a conservative anymore, I'm just a Catholic. That means I take some views that some define as very conservative (opposition to abortion, opposition to gay marriage) and some that others define as very liberal (opposition to capital punishment, defense of the rights of immigrants and the poor and homeless.) As the great Catholic writer R.A. Lafferty wrote in his 1971 novel The Flame is Green, "Things are set up as contraries that are not even in the same category. Listen to me: the opposite of radical is superficial, the opposite of liberal is stingy; the opposite of conservative is destructive. Thus I will describe myself as a radical conservative liberal..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Wow, well lets just ban heterosexual behavior also while we are at it.. From now on, no more sex for anybody, we all have to live celibate lives.. Does not matter what your religion believes.. You can not argue that my religious beliefs are wrong based on the fact they are not your religious beliefs.. If there is a religion out there that accepts polygamy (I am sure there are, don't some Arab countries still allow multiple wives.) then it does not matter if either of our religious beliefs are against it.. US laws may care, but from a religious point of view, it is not up to you to convert them.. Same goes for any religion that believes in adultery.. In order for me to believe that a homosexual has the right to live a fulfilling life, sorry, but, no I do not have to believe in polygamy, adultery, child molestation, bestiality or any other thing you can think up that you feel should be repugnant.. I do not have to adapt to an all or nothing belief in order for you to condemn my beliefs.. But if it is to be an all or nothing belief, then I think if fair to expect you to give up heterosexual relationships, because you must conform to the nothing belief.. So says I... I am stating the beliefs of MY religion and all the other religions that have now accepted gays and are either now performing same-sex marriages or considering it, or may not yet perform them, but can in some way support the family members belonging to a same-sex couple.. I attempted it in a way that should get through to you, that you absolutely do not have the one and only way to view the world.. I am responding to this statement.. Somewhere deep inside of me says that I really don't think murder, pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, gossip, lying, kleptomania or any other types of vices are "okay". There are those who go to great lengths to try and justify their positions on these issues, and that's an okay thing for them to do. We have all been given free will to make our own choices. Just don't try and impose those justification on others. I am saying "No, Stosh, No", Everybody in the world, even those who disagree with you do not deep down inside really believe in everything you believe in and are rationalizing it... Sorry.. So let's look at that last line of yours Stosh "Just don't try and impose those justifications on others"... Yet here you are with your own religious bent, trying to justify your own beliefs, trying to rationalize your own beliefs, trying to impose your own beliefs on others... Why is this just fine for you??.... Oh yeah, that's right.. Because yours is the only religious view that should be respected and followed and imposed on all others... Including making rules in the BSA which is suppose to be non-denominational.. In order to force others to not be able to follow their own religious beliefs, but to follow yours even if they think yours are archaic, unintelligent and inhumane.. Does not matter that you agree with my religious beliefs or the religious beliefs of others who are not of your religion.. What matters is that you need to accept that religious freedom is not just for you and your religion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 @@moosetracker I for one don't care at all what the beliefs of others are and will support them as long as they keep their religious freedom to themselves. As you indicate as long as it involves no one else, then what's the problem. However when radical homosexuals mandate to cake shop owners and pizza parlor owners what they can and can't believe then they are way out of line. Using the government to back up their moral codes is no different than radical Islam forcing their code of law on someone. $139,000 worth of fines because they won't bake some stupid cake is not only a moral issue it is a political issue and affront to the Bill of Rights offered by the Constitution both of which seem to have disappeared over the past few years. The more religious laws on the books under the guise of hate crimes only fans the fire. If I were to be able to cast my vote on the issue, I would say anyone who tries to infringe on the beliefs of others is 100% wrong every time and those radical homosexuals in the cake shop are doing just that. If this guy won't sell me a cake, so be it. After 15 beers, the bartender won't sell me anymore beer too. What a bigoted jerk that bartender must be. If homosexuals want to get "married" so be it. Give them the license. If they want me to perform a ceremony, nope, I guess I'm going to get fined $139,000 and spend the rest of my life in prison for my religious beliefs. Even though I am no longer a practicing clergyperson, maybe I should be carrying malpractice insurance to protect me from the stupidity of others. Oh, wait, I DO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Wow, well lets just ban heterosexual behavior also while we are at it.. From now on, no more sex for anybody, we all have to live celibate lives.. Does not matter what your religion believes.. You can not argue that my religious beliefs are wrong based on the fact they are not your religious beliefs.. LOL, I'm trying to figure out how you would convince my liberal democrate atheist dad that your religion has anything to do with the biology of a man born to want a man. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Stosh - Although I have some sympathy for perhaps a photographer or caterer who would work the wedding in that they would feel uncomfortable.. I seriously think they could politely duck out by saying they are booked for a different event on that day.. How will the couple know otherwise? The only way is if they feel it necessary to preach their religious belief to the couple about their wicked, sinful ways.. That would put it in my book as the photographer / caterer is the one in the wrong.. As for any of the other stuff, that is just selling a product and you do not have to be in attendance. Just sell the product.. It has nothing to do with your belief system.. It is a product.. Is it any different then selling the product for other reason you may find offensive? For instance an anti-gun person creating a cake for a gun enthusiast with semi-automatic weapons pointed at people, or perhaps a cake celebrating 3 year old Bobby's first real gun.. Because it isn't offensive to them religiously they would have to do the cake.. Both cake bakers can mutter under their breath about the moron customers all they want, they have that right. Could the same-sex couple go else where? If I were gay, I would. I agree, why should I buy something from someone who just spent 30 minutes preaching to me about my sinful ways.. But, the question is, why should I have to go blindly into an establishment, order a product and be blindsided by someone trying to convert me from my sinful ways? These laws would just protect the religious owners of an establishment anyway.. If the owners are fine with catering a same-sex wedding, or doing the cake or whatever then their employees would need to do it regardless of the employees personal view.. How complex would it get, if you go into a drug store for contraceptives and find although the store carries them, the pharmacy or the cashier refuses to ring you out, based on their religious principles? Do you have to go from drug store to drug store until you found one with a cashier who would sell you the product in their store? What if you go to a restaurant that has a great Chicken Cordon Bleu on the menu.. Unfortunately you get the Jewish waiter who will not serve it because the meat & dairy are mixed, so it is not Kosher.. Choose something off the menu that is Kosher, or starve.. Oh, and sorry, the employer can not fire them for not doing their jobs because that would be discriminating based on their religion. So, I guess we disagree.. But, again.. We need not agree.. Wow, well lets just ban heterosexual behavior also while we are at it.. From now on, no more sex for anybody, we all have to live celibate lives.. Does not matter what your religion believes.. You can not argue that my religious beliefs are wrong based on the fact they are not your religious beliefs.. LOL, I'm trying to figure out how you would convince my liberal democrate atheist dad that your religion has anything to do with the biology of a man born to want a man. Barry I fail to see anything in what I said that states I think my religion has anything to do with the biology of a man born to want a man.. Let me interpret.. A) Since you think that my religious beliefs for accepting the homosexuals lifestyle means I must accept every sexual lifestyle no matter how deviant.. Your belief is that of an all or nothing on the topic of sex.. If I am assigned the "all" you will need to accept the "nothing" therefore no sex for you or member of your religion ever.. This is based on your religious views, not mine. B) Religious beliefs are not undisputable fact.. There are many varying religious beliefs.. You can not dispute all religious beliefs that are not yours as being wrong simply because they do not agree with yours.. No where in there did I even mention anything about my religion playing any part in the creation of homosexual behavior.. I can not even fathom how you could interpret that from those two sentences. Given to how you totally mis-interpret anything I write, I would imagine you must have your liberal atheist friend scratching his head.. It is similar to "Home Improvement" I am Wilson the next door neighbor, and you are Tim, going back to restate Wilson's words to his wife or children and getting it so muddled they have no idea what he is talking about. Edited May 7, 2015 by moosetracker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 And with that I will fire a shot across the bow of this thread. One of the moderators (and a fair one at that) has already walked away from this one in disgust. I'm merely extending the courtesy of a warning. This thread is only hanging by a single fiber. If the moderators took a vote on this one, I'm not sure what the result would be but please be aware, this thread in particular is under discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 @@moosetracker One always has plenty of clues to true bigotry if one digs deep enough. Yes, it's just a stupid cake. But had the baker refused to bake a cake for the KKK, nobody would say a thing. Maybe he'll get a burning cross in his front yard, but that's about it. But if the news reports are correct, the baker refused to do the cake, BUT (and I emphasize BUT!) he also offered the services of some of his competitive bakers who didn't have a religious problem with it and said that if they charged more for the cake than what he would charge, he would pay the difference. That wasn't good enough for the political agenda of this particular homosexual couple. With blatant bigotry flying here, it's really obvious to me that the baker was set up just to get the national homosexual agenda into the media. Am I prejudiced? No. I just have religious beliefs. If I were to get an invitation to a homosexual wedding as a guest, I would send a nice card congratulating them and a nice gift, but I would not attend. A card and gift are a social courtesy gesture. Attendance is not. Of course if my daughter were to be marrying some total jerk I would be doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 You're not listening......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Pack - could you be more specific.. There has only been one comment made, I didn't see anything condescending or negative in it.. It was just an opinion made.. And since it was not my opinion, but addressed to me, and I don't see hostility in it, what did you find wrong with it? Edited May 8, 2015 by moosetracker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Thing is, Moose, you and a few others (probably me included here) are so accustomed to the rough play in this forum that 'the line' is a bit farther out for us than for people who just arrived. The concern is that the rough way we treat each other here, (while those of us with thick skins might even enjoy the game of tag), might reflect badly in the view of others who can't 'read' the personalities involved. The last thing any of us wants to do is to cause other scouters who might benefit from joining the campfire, to be turned away by what they see in this forum. (Moderators, if you're reading this please correct me if I misinterpreted the gist of our discussion). Fact is, this particular thread should have had a natural death at about page 2. But we enjoy the jousting so much we seem to search for ways to keep it going anyway. So my advice is either play really nicely or expect to see a quick death for this thread. Again, I'm just extending the courtesy of a warning of what could happen. Edited May 8, 2015 by packsaddle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Given to how you totally mis-interpret anything I write, I would imagine you must have your liberal atheist friend scratching his head.. It is similar to "Home Improvement" I am Wilson the next door neighbor, and you are Tim, going back to restate Wilson's words to his wife or children and getting it so muddled they have no idea what he is talking about. Liberal atheist "dad". And a proud democrate. As you can imagine we don't get much into political discussions because they never go well. We have scouting in common. Interesting story, he was a Scoutmaster at the age of 15 because all the men were at war. He became a liberal when he personally met Elenaor Roosevelt. I know what you are thinking, how could we be so different. Me a visionary and him so gullible. LOL Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Understood Packsaddle, but what did Stosh say that you thought was out of line?.. I just see a statement to a difference of opinion.. You now got me doubting if I can continue the debate with him no matter how respectful. Eagledad - I too have friends of differing opinions, you can find people with tough skin off the internet as well as on.. So was he an atheist when he was the Scoutmaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Eagledad - I too have friends of differing opinions, you can find people with tough skin off the internet as well as on.. So was he an atheist when he was the Scoutmaster? No, when he met his second wife. LOL It's true. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Was there a reason? Or did he just convert to what his wife was.. If she had been jewish, then he would have been Jewish.. If Catholic / then Catholic.. But because she was atheist.. I could see maybe becoming atheist with a divorce, but it's odd it that he changed upon meeting his 2nd wife.. I guess if he was Catholic and divorced his 1st wife, then perhaps that could be a reason also, but usually you just become a stay at home Catholic and remarry outside the church. Edited May 8, 2015 by moosetracker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 You're not listening......... My apologies, I tend to only read posts that address me. Didn't see your comment. I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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